EVE General Discussion

You realize T2 industrialists likley have a POS for research??? and you realize that this POS is likely in hisec??? So leaving the corp isn't really an option, less you dismantle your corp just to go farm some LP for datacores.

Oh wait, now I need another alt.

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One glaring thing occurs to me. How many of us have alts? LOTS Why do we have alts? Perhaps we were looking for other ways to make ISK. Why do we need so much ISK? Well the rewards for the playstyle I was in made it incredibly hard to afford that next ship tier.

In my eyes, all of this is from a poor rewards system to begin with. Whether it be industry, mining, ratting, missioning, etc We have nearly all tried to find other ways to supplement our main characters efforts and wallet, in the form of trading, DC's, PI, etc.

What does CCP do.... They have put an all out assault on these forms of income. What do we see as a result? Skyrocketing costs of all in game items.

Perhaps if the rewards system was better, we could do as they want and just go shoot other ships. It's often voiced that a PvP player has an alt to generate isk so they can PvP. Instead, all of these nerfs to the passive, or semi-passsive income only create the need for us to spend more time generating ISK.

ISK drives your game, stop making it harder to aquire.

I chose this, of all you comments Malcanis. And I'll answer your first question with one word. Technetium.

Now I'll ramble on.
In the T2 production cycle, HiSec has the following items in plentiful supply (or at least, easy to get):

Low-end minerals
Virtually unlimited production lines in stations
Agents with Datacores for T2 invention
T1 BPOs from NPC stations.

LoSec has:
...
...
Agents with Datacores for T2 invention
Available R&D slots in stations for BP research & copying
Towers for moon goo reactions
Limited Technetium
...

NullSec has:
High end Minerals
Limited production lines in stations (including R&D)
Capital and Supercapital Construction Platforms
Towers for moon go reactions
Technetium
More Technetium
did I mention Technetium?


I'm in favor of improving the ability to produce in Nullsec. But realistically, the three areas of space should have some interdependency, and throwing datacores in Faction War does not move datacores to LoSec, it moves datacores to a singular aspect of of LoSec that inherently excludes access to 50% of empire (including racial datacores).

Nullsec already has a virtual monopoly on T2 production by the simple existence of Technetium without an alchemical alternative. The fact that production happens in Empire has NOTHING to do with R&D agents providing datacores instead of an LP store. EVERY SINGLE T2 item in the game REQUIRES Technetium. All of the other changes to ANY production system are virtually IRRELEVANT with that TEN-TON ELEPHANT sitting in the corner.

A Patch from CCP that fixed T2 production and Technetium would do more for this game than any of the things happening in Inferno.

Thanks for the screen shot, and the info. I made my regular 2 month run yesterday to pick up my datacores. If you think this doesn't have an in game cost of time.... Total round trip for my four lv4 agents... 84 jumps. That's not AFK either when you are carrying these things.

Now, I actually use my datacores, and it's not even enough to supply me what I need for the two months it takes to accrue them. So I'm not farming ISK. I will now have to buy twice as many datacores off the market (perhaps all, because it's hardly worth running around getting them anymore). The cost of your T2 mods, and ships is going up, because you just reduced my profit margins. (If it isn't profitable it doesn't get produced.)

I can't believe the amount of time I spent grinding those agents. The costs of the skills, and time training.

T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.

I don't know why we all bother posting our thoughts here. CCP already made their decision obviously. They really don't care what we have to say. The only thing that will get their attention is a player protest as happened last year.

CCP, did you get feedback on this R&D change from the CSM? Either CSM6 or CSM7? Both?

I get his point. My agents are going to be impacted exactly the same way...

Noone ever said that. There's no ABC ores in high-sec, no dysp and tech moons. Sandbox does not equal level playing field or conformity, it means that you get to chose what you want to do and where you want to do it.

When CCP Soundwave states that they would like to see T2 production move to 0.0, that points to CCP visions of streamlining the game play experience to one where you progress from high-sec to low-sec and finally null-sec, which is a linear progression rather than an open and free experience.

If you watched the fanfest panels and listen to CCP's podcasts it's not uncommon to hear such sentiments, that they would like more 'empire carebears' to move into low- and null-sec and take up PVP, but I think it's a big mistake for CCP to try and define what we should all be doing.

The success of this game has always come from the formulae that CCP gives us the tools and we do what we want with them (until we break them).

When you adjust an order on the market, you pvp...
When you create contracts *just* below someone else' contract, you pvp...
When you grind standings so that you get that 1.5% better refine than someone else, you pvp...
When you kill rats you are effectively pvp'ing against anyone else who wants to shoot rats (their gone when they look, because of your actions)...
PVP isn't just "target, press f1" - it's dam near *everything* in eve with the possible exception of "request mission" & "complete mission".


And apparently, CCP likes it that way, because (you know) they've coded it that way...

I had to pull my tower down recently because of this. What I had planned to do was put it back up in bursts to try and conserve fuel costs, by building up enough fuel through PI to run it for a stretch, blitz the thing with research jobs, then pull it down again after I had enough successes to do a decent manufacturing blitz.

This is how a typical miner / builder in null sec thinks:

Mine ABC's only to have maximal Isk per hour ratio.
Refine and keep Zydrine and Megacyte required to build aside and use the almost perfectly safe way of JB's and titanbridges to haul the rest to Empire
Sell the excess zydrine and megacyte and buy low ends.
Compress the low ends and use the virtually safe way of jumpdrives to get back.
For real easy transport get capships, jump them back and reprocess.



In null sec sov space the Isk per hour ratio is virtually a holy mantra. Just looking at the various sites you will see Sanctums and Havens farmed to death. The lesser ones get glanced at at times for various reasons, but the overall Isk per hour is too low to bother with them.

However if hi sec wants to do maximal Isk per hour the null sec sov bears quickly start to use their batphone and voila, more nerfs in favour of null sec and then the mandatory HTFU.

You play the game as directed or you just have to suffor more and more the consequences.

The hypocracy of even calling it a Sandbox nowadays is absurd.
Instead of fixing the real issues they cater towards their "Homies" and all is well.

Make the route to get the low ends to null sec more of a pain in the butt.
There isn't really a harsh null sec unless you talk about NPC null sec.
Cyno jammers all over the place, plenty of PoS to safe up or warp to safespot and cloak up.
There is plenty of intell about a hostile or hostiles.

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.

In hi sec the use of directional scanner is a must, in null sec you can see in local if someone doesn't belong before you even start using the directional scanner.

I agree all passive income sources should be nerfed but lets start on the big earners first and completely scrap moon mining and replace it with a PI style system until ring mining or whatever is ready.