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Inferno And Datacores

First post
Author
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#201 - 2012-05-03 18:03:43 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Kesker wrote:

T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.


POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time.

(small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days)

Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482
Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440
Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380
Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400

If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene.



Bob, I respect you and all you have done for the game. Even a past uni member here.

However, my history doesn't show this at all. Hard to make a direct comparison as fuel costs used to be dependent on the arrays you were running. A small research POS used to cost me around 86mil per month. Using recent price averages I costed at 15k per unit, and it's 7200 units for a small pos, so 108mil. (Damn I just looked at current prices in my region, and they are now 18000 per fuel block. The cost of running that small pos just went up 21mil in the last week.)

The fuel blocks benefited larger corps, and industry operations, that run varied arrays on a Med / Lg POS. The small emergent industrialist is who took the hit.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#202 - 2012-05-03 18:10:40 UTC
Block prices are up to 18k ISK/u right now because Isotopes have gone up to 900-1000 ISK/u due to HAG5. Come back in a month and they'll be back down in the 500-650 range. Plus, you should always make your own fuel blocks. It is not an expensive investment (20-25M for a perfectly researched BPO on contracts) or a big time cost (you can make a month of fuel for a large tower in about 30-35 hours in a station slot).

October prices have to assume full LOz/HW usage. Which, even for a larger tower back then (assuming you didn't max out one or the other) only changed the total numbers by 5-10%. No matter which way you sliced it, fuel pellets were cheaper then the old-style fueling for small towers. If you ran your tower at maximum LOz usage, then it was a big savings. If you didn't max out your LOz usage, it wasn't as much savings, but still some.

The current isotope price spike also goes to show why you should maintain a 2-3 month supply of fuel, so you can ride out the semi-annual spikes in the market caused by HAG / interdiction efforts.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#203 - 2012-05-03 18:16:07 UTC
You know, I would do FW if I didn't have to leave my corp to do so.

It's just not practical, particularly for someone involved in science and industry, for a variety of reasons.

No good deed goes unpunished

Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#204 - 2012-05-03 18:16:18 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.


In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2012-05-03 18:19:37 UTC
Kesker wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?

Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?

Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?




You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right?



You realize T2 industrialists likley have a POS for research??? and you realize that this POS is likely in hisec??? So leaving the corp isn't really an option, less you dismantle your corp just to go farm some LP for datacores.

Oh wait, now I need another alt.



One glaring thing occurs to me. How many of us have alts? LOTS Why do we have alts? Perhaps we were looking for other ways to make ISK. Why do we need so much ISK? Well the rewards for the playstyle I was in made it incredibly hard to afford that next ship tier.

In my eyes, all of this is from a poor rewards system to begin with. Whether it be industry, mining, ratting, missioning, etc We have nearly all tried to find other ways to supplement our main characters efforts and wallet, in the form of trading, DC's, PI, etc.

What does CCP do.... They have put an all out assault on these forms of income. What do we see as a result? Skyrocketing costs of all in game items.

Perhaps if the rewards system was better, we could do as they want and just go shoot other ships. It's often voiced that a PvP player has an alt to generate isk so they can PvP. Instead, all of these nerfs to the passive, or semi-passsive income only create the need for us to spend more time generating ISK.

ISK drives your game, stop making it harder to aquire.


While this may not benefit CCP, it most certainly benefits RMT.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2012-05-03 18:21:58 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:
Killer Gandry wrote:

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.


In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?


Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon.

In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec.
Smodab Ongalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2012-05-03 18:26:04 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:


In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?


Thank you for answering your own question and saving me the trouble of doing so.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#208 - 2012-05-03 18:26:36 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Brunaburh wrote:
Killer Gandry wrote:

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.


In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?


Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon.

In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec.


This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]

Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2012-05-03 18:30:07 UTC
I can see CCP being vindictive enough to make these changes throughout the game and then offer what used to be available through their albatross known as the Nex store...

No, I am not liking it either.
Smodab Ongalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2012-05-03 18:30:36 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:

This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec.



Sov null-sec in and of itself is not dangerous. Getting out there may be sketchy, unless you have something with a jump drive.

But once you are actually in your home system, life couldn't be more safe. You have intel channels that let you know of hostiles jumps away. You have local that instantly tells you what everyone is there to do (blue=not shot you, not blue=shoot you). You have fewer people, so the chances of running into a "not blue" are less.

I've lived in pretty much every region of EVE at one point or another, and nothing makes me more nervous than flying through highsec in anything of value.

Well, maybe rancer is more dangerous than high-sec, but that's differentLol.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2012-05-03 18:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Lapine Davion wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Brunaburh wrote:
Killer Gandry wrote:

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.


In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?


Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon.

In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.

This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec.


This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec.


Is it even possible for me to lose a Hulk in Null Sec if I pay any attention at all to Local?

How exactly do I lose it?

I'm watching Local and a non blue shows up.

I leave drones, and warp to deep safe spot and log.

How do I lose my Hulk?

HOW?
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#212 - 2012-05-03 18:39:18 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.


While there is some truth to that statement, you must take into account that having a 'safe' carebear haven in null-sec is based on diplomatic relations, sovereignty mechanics and having a large enough PVP fleet to defend your space if required.

Nobody is saying that CCP should make empire an overly safe carebear zone. It would be nice if they would acknowledge that two thirds of the games population live there though, and perhaps pay some attention to the voices of this majority instead of catering so much to the null-sec alliances.





Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
#213 - 2012-05-03 19:32:02 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:

In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?


I think you answered the question in the same very statement.

In null sec it's easy to see who might be out to get you.
As for it being kept safe by players. It's not the players that keep it safe, it's the ridiculous sov system that does most of that. The players mainly play reinforcetimer blobwars.

Once you have the sov then all you really need is numbers. And nothing flocks better than a herd of CFC sheep.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2012-05-03 20:38:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0

Forgive my ignorance but as someone who hasn't partaken in nullsec industry could you expand a bit on this?
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#215 - 2012-05-03 20:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


You're eliminating mining with guns and but planning on replacing it with researching with guns.

You ask what does this detract from, well these changes not only detract from Researcher as a profession (Careers#Researcher (evelopedia)) they actually decimate it. These science skills(evelopedia) become pointless.

The impact of these proposed changes on this character alone is :


  • 11 Million skill points in science now pointless.
  • One years training wasted
  • 240 Million ISK in skill books


As I also have two more researchers. The total impact of this is about 600 Million ISK in science skill books, around 30 Million SP in science and over two years training time.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#216 - 2012-05-03 20:58:39 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
And I have two more researchers. The total impact of this is about 600 Million ISK in science skill books, around 30 Million SP in science and over two years training time.
…which you can still use for things other than simple RP collection (and for RP collection as well, since it's not going away). None of your SP or training time is wasted unless you choose to waste it by not making use of it.

Have a look in EVEMon what those skills can be used for and start doing that in addition to RP harvesting.
Cmdr Tarlton
USA Vets
#217 - 2012-05-03 22:56:16 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut.

Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries?

Mining with guns, all over again.


Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


Why not just take out the security level system and make the whole universe null. I'm sure the pvp lovers would cream themselves over that. Pushing things to low sec is simply forcing people who don't play eve for pvp ... to play for pvp and guess what... when I can't play how I want to without pvp then I won't play. Move lvl 4 missions to low sec and I'm done. You won't be able to do any missions without pvp. Pirates will be everywhere. Nobody even bothers with lvl 5s for that reason. You need to wake up and realize that not of your business comes with pvp players. There are a significant player base who don't want pvp 23/7. We know how to get to low sec if we want pvp. It's bad enough we can't join a corporation without having our play time ruined by war after war after war. So either cater to both sides or cater to your pvp base. I promise you though if you keep choosing your pvp base over your non pvp base you're not going to have a non-pvp base and your pvp crowd will not have any non pvpers to grief on and they will quit too. Wake up CCP.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#218 - 2012-05-03 23:03:06 UTC
CCP Soundwave seems to be using the old 'carrot and stick' approach to get people into low/null.

Trouble is, he forgot the carrot and is only using the stick. I think this will come back to haunt him, to be honest.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2012-05-04 00:31:40 UTC
This is good news for people who don't mind a little risk and a step in the right direction towards buffing FW. Also the news for the high sec harvesters isn't that bad because over time prices will adjust anyway.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#220 - 2012-05-04 01:24:47 UTC
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
This is good news for people who don't mind a little risk and a step in the right direction towards buffing FW. Also the news for the high sec harvesters isn't that bad because over time prices will adjust anyway.


The problem with this is that:

- WTF do the faction warfare corps have to do with R&D from a lore standpoint?

- Nerfing the rate of passive RP accumulation or raising the cost of datacores is going to raise the prices of invented T2 gear.

The proper approach would have been:

a) Leave existing passive R&D mechanics alone. Leave RP/datacore prices alone. Don't move player's cheese if you don't have to.

b) Increase the amount of RP that you get as a reward from the daily mission. Boost it enough that it's worth doing those daily missions. Right now, those daily missions are only worth about a few hundred thousand ISK/day. And because L4 R&D agents are spread around, nobody wants to bother flying 20-30 jumps per day just to earn 2-3 million ISK worth of datacores.

c) Add datacores to the R&D NPC corp LP stores.

d) Go ahead and add things to the FW LP store - I think datacores are a bad thing because they don't have anything to do with the lore of the FW NPC corps. BPCs for combat hulls / modules would be a far better fit.

e) If you have high standings with the corp in question, you should get a 10-30% discount on goods from that NPC store.

Increased supply would turn down the payback on passive R&D point earning another notch over time, giving people time to figure out that it's becoming an even more marginal income method. Right now, payback for (5) R&D L4 agents is already 30-60 days. By boosting the supply sources, you gradually wean people off while moving them towards more active production of datacores.