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Solution to Dismantling Trade Hubs: Taxes

Author
Gal Fed
Identifiable Characters Corporation
#1 - 2012-04-28 22:48:30 UTC
Goonswarm's 'Burn Jita' campaign has brought attention to the fact that despite CCP's somewhat tepid efforts at fostering a decentralized global market (query whether this would even be a desirable thing), Eve, like most other MMOs, has a handful of trade hubs where much of the game's trading occurs.

CCP can solve this problem through taxes. The mechanic would be similar to increased rental rates for highly used factory and research slots. The more trading that goes on, the higher the tax rate would be.

More specifically, in order to avoid having a handful of nearby systems become new trade hubs, the tax should work something like this example (note, the tax rates I propose below are only to illustrate, CCP's economists should figure out what the appropriate numbers should be; I am only proposing the concept):

For every 100 bil in buy/sell orders that are fulfilled at 4-4 Caldari Navy Assembly Plant in Jita, the tax rate rises 4% in that station, 3% in that system (Jita), 2% in that constellation (Kimotoro), and 1% in that region (The Forge).

If CCP so chooses, there could be an additional dimension to this to encourage players to venture out into low-sec. The security status of the system could act as a modifier to the higher taxes that would be potentially imposed so that, for example, a 1.0 system recognizes 100% of the above relevant tax increases, a 0.9 system 90%, a 0.8 system 80%, and so forth. 0.0 could be completely exempted if CCP so chooses.

Finally, if we keep using the above example, if 4-4 has seen 400 billion in trade, if after a set amount of time (such as, for example, every downtime) if 400 billion in trade has not occurred, the tax rate reverts to what it should be based on the amount of trade that has taken place the previous day. So for example, if the tax rate reaches the 400 bil level, but during day 2 only 200 bil in trade occurs, then at the start of day 3 (after downtime ends), the tax rate is as if 200 bil in trade has occurred.

How to protect your 90 day sell order from a very high tax rate that occurs on day 56? CCP can include an option when creating orders to automatically kill the order if the effective tax rate for you (based on the real tax rate and your skills) hits a certain threshold.

Why would this be a good solution? Mainly because it would be effective (Jita's tax would be astronomical very quickly) and because it is self-executing (if some random system in Devoid saw massive amounts of trade tomorrow, CCP would not have to do anything additional such as move around some stargates, etc., to counter the rise of the new trade hub. From a technical point of view, I think it also wouldn't be too hard on the server, as CCP already collects data on its trade volume, and a shift in tax rates would only occur periodically, not constantly.

These changes would (1) discourage people to trade in trade hubs as it will be more expensive for them, (2) encourage people to more quickly move out of hi-sec, (3) give greater importance to trading skills.

Thoughts?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-04-29 00:05:14 UTC
...Why? What's wrong with trade hubs?
Gabriel Luminati
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-29 00:21:43 UTC
I see the logic in the proposed concept, however once crucial thing is that this would split / devide people and the trade communities. This game as one of the best social communities and we should be fighting to keep it, not scatter it.

I believe your intentions are good and meaningful, but i dont think this is the right solution.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-29 00:47:09 UTC
I dont understand whats wrong with trade hubs, for a certain amount of things trade hubs are good, adn having regional markets are nice , a single central trade hub is i agree a pain, but it also has a purpose.

as to jita, the main problem that i see with it is that it is a super concentration of wealth and limited exits, but thats not really something that can be dictated very well, what you would see is some place like Yulai, which is on the border of three regions (SIng lasion- Dodixie, Essence- Oursulaert, and Genesis- Yulai) where the taxes would be spread out among the regions with a four jump distance between them. ganking would happen a lot as people moved assets between the systems and youd have 3x as many alts,


Im not sure why you would ever want to restrict trade in this way.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Altair Raja
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-04-29 00:57:38 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...Why? What's wrong with trade hubs?

this^
and Dodixie > Jita

AFK cloaking doesn't earn anything, so it needs a buff!

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-29 01:41:13 UTC
Because nothing is wrong with a trade hub and OP is an idiot, game is fine as is since trade hub = player vs player interaction and concept very much like...Wankageddon and Burning Sensation when you PVP in Jita...its player driven. Its like asking to burn down your local Walmart or other super store...its not like anyone forces you to use the trade hub and if you don't like it....fly the **** all over the place if thats your preference.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-29 08:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Aqriue wrote:
Because nothing is wrong with a trade hub and OP is an idiot, game is fine as is since trade hub = player vs player interaction and concept very much like...Wankageddon and Burning Sensation when you PVP in Jita...its player driven. Its like asking to burn down your local Walmart or other super store...its not like anyone forces you to use the trade hub and if you don't like it....fly the **** all over the place if thats your preference.


I'm going to have to agree here. It's a spaceju-fu solution to a non-existent problem.
Gal Fed
Identifiable Characters Corporation
#8 - 2012-04-29 09:12:26 UTC
The problem with trade hubs is that they make it to easy to buy and sell things; the economy is too liquid. This convenience in actuality takes a lot away from the game. Players often note how the first several weeks of playing Eve, or for that matter any other MMO, are special partly because of the immensity of the game and the uncertainty that surrounds all the things they do.

Nothing quite takes away from this experience the way trade hubs do. When you set your destination to Jita, but also to Amarr and a few others places, you know that (1) you will be able to find what you want to buy as soon as you get there, and the price will be among the cheapest in the universe, (2) you will be able to sell your stuff at a good price and expect a relatively quick turnover, and (3) whatever you are looking for will be in stock.

These things, while they make the game easier, take away an important exploration aspect to it that cannot be understated. It is not good for the game if someone who is in Lonetrek and wants an Abaddon for a specific mission can, without having any doubt, set their destination to Jita, go and buy their Abaddon, use it for their mission, bring it back to Jita, and have it sold all within a matter of hours all at the cost of a 1% tax.

Although it will make things more difficult, it will add much to the game experience if, using the above player, he has to travel to the Citadel, Sinq Liason, Verge Vendor, etc., looking for a decent price on an Abaddon, knowing that once he has the ship, he cannot get rid of it so easily. Of course, trade hubs would still exist, but they would be taxed more. So if he really wanted his ship asap, he could still go to Jita and pay a premium, and lose even more money if he tried to sell it there. At least this way, his convenience comes with a cost. In the end, this element of the unknown would enhance the player experience. It would make empire a bit less familiar, and it would be a boon for the hundreds upon hundreds of empire systems that barely see 5 players a day.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#9 - 2012-04-29 09:20:01 UTC
CCP has killed off a lot of bot users, and that included a lot of market bots, which makes a smaller hub with less thorough coverage of "professional traders" nicer to work in as a manufacturer.

When stuff was badly botted, it didn't matter so much where you were, because your order was going to get 0.01d in 2 minutes time, might as well be jita with bigger volume.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#10 - 2012-04-29 11:06:49 UTC
Before talking taxation, there is a rather simpler way of resolving the need for hubs, in this over dominant way we have atm..

Remove cap limit on orders and contracts. Make sales orders number limited also, like on buy order, for bulk selling.

With no limitations shifting and building smaller hubs would be easier, and more interesting for smaller scale players. The mere savings on office rental is considerable, since these are already using a working floating price.

The need for more npc services to be floating price is only a good idea if we can get some of these services into the hands of player to player public rental of say research slots and the likes. Ideally get rid of almost all npc slots and let the station slots be npcs renting out players public slots. Then ad VAT and link it to standings, both on slot owner and renter..

Any active attempt to remove Jita and other hubs will fail, and is a disruptive move. Players should just get tools and features that make it more optional.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-04-29 16:21:31 UTC
Gal Fed wrote:
The problem with trade hubs is

They don't exist. Get your ass out of highsec and....no trade hubs. BAM! Headshot to the knee, you are still clueless.

Try this...fit your most expensive ship with high end faction and officer mods...now warp to 15km every jump and slowboat to the gate...again, again, and again until you lose it by traveling in lowsec or null in your quest to find the best price. Rinse and Repeat...then that nostalgic feeling of something so far away will slap you in the face...that is the convience of a trade hub. Its all right there in one spot and you don't have to traisp across the universe looking for it...and that feeling wears off really ******* fast unless you are totally naive as you seem to let on. You don't have to get it at a trade hub, but its there for a very basic human reason...its convient and not much different then liquor store thats around the ******* block your home...its more expensive then a super store so you go to the super store instead and end up getting 3 liters of boxed wine, some non-**** stained boxers incase you get lucky with a girl this week, and pick up a new edition of Cosmo when the only thring you really wanted was a candy bar. THATS CONVIENCE in a nutshell and you don't need to raise taxes.
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#12 - 2012-04-29 17:03:32 UTC
I think I get the space weddings post now

the real way to solve this is player owned stations. then the owners can decide what to do, if they mess up, people move along else where. like in real life

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2012-04-29 17:59:55 UTC
Gal Fed wrote:
The problem with trade hubs is that they make it to easy to buy and sell things; the economy is too liquid. This convenience in actuality takes a lot away from the game. Players often note how the first several weeks of playing Eve, or for that matter any other MMO, are special partly because of the immensity of the game and the uncertainty that surrounds all the things they do.

Nothing quite takes away from this experience the way trade hubs do. When you set your destination to Jita, but also to Amarr and a few others places, you know that (1) you will be able to find what you want to buy as soon as you get there, and the price will be among the cheapest in the universe, (2) you will be able to sell your stuff at a good price and expect a relatively quick turnover, and (3) whatever you are looking for will be in stock.

These things, while they make the game easier, take away an important exploration aspect to it that cannot be understated. It is not good for the game if someone who is in Lonetrek and wants an Abaddon for a specific mission can, without having any doubt, set their destination to Jita, go and buy their Abaddon, use it for their mission, bring it back to Jita, and have it sold all within a matter of hours all at the cost of a 1% tax.

Although it will make things more difficult, it will add much to the game experience if, using the above player, he has to travel to the Citadel, Sinq Liason, Verge Vendor, etc., looking for a decent price on an Abaddon, knowing that once he has the ship, he cannot get rid of it so easily. Of course, trade hubs would still exist, but they would be taxed more. So if he really wanted his ship asap, he could still go to Jita and pay a premium, and lose even more money if he tried to sell it there. At least this way, his convenience comes with a cost. In the end, this element of the unknown would enhance the player experience. It would make empire a bit less familiar, and it would be a boon for the hundreds upon hundreds of empire systems that barely see 5 players a day.



I'm sorry, but why should I spend all day flying around highsec to gather up a handful of ships without getting gouged on tax and mods every time I want to do something? I don't play this game to wander around shopping. I suppose it'd be a nice buff for red frog, but other than that, it would do nothing but annoy people.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-29 18:03:50 UTC
a change like that would jsut make every bulk sale on the forums, and never ingame on the market, trade channels would be even more important adn every sale would still happen in jita, just through contracts, and forum selling.

the market would be pretty much restricted to very small shoppers. lest they have to move a billion m/3 a region over.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Gal Fed
Identifiable Characters Corporation
#15 - 2012-04-29 19:04:14 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gal Fed wrote:
The problem with trade hubs is that they make it to easy to buy and sell things; the economy is too liquid. This convenience in actuality takes a lot away from the game. Players often note how the first several weeks of playing Eve, or for that matter any other MMO, are special partly because of the immensity of the game and the uncertainty that surrounds all the things they do.

Nothing quite takes away from this experience the way trade hubs do. When you set your destination to Jita, but also to Amarr and a few others places, you know that (1) you will be able to find what you want to buy as soon as you get there, and the price will be among the cheapest in the universe, (2) you will be able to sell your stuff at a good price and expect a relatively quick turnover, and (3) whatever you are looking for will be in stock.

These things, while they make the game easier, take away an important exploration aspect to it that cannot be understated. It is not good for the game if someone who is in Lonetrek and wants an Abaddon for a specific mission can, without having any doubt, set their destination to Jita, go and buy their Abaddon, use it for their mission, bring it back to Jita, and have it sold all within a matter of hours all at the cost of a 1% tax.

Although it will make things more difficult, it will add much to the game experience if, using the above player, he has to travel to the Citadel, Sinq Liason, Verge Vendor, etc., looking for a decent price on an Abaddon, knowing that once he has the ship, he cannot get rid of it so easily. Of course, trade hubs would still exist, but they would be taxed more. So if he really wanted his ship asap, he could still go to Jita and pay a premium, and lose even more money if he tried to sell it there. At least this way, his convenience comes with a cost. In the end, this element of the unknown would enhance the player experience. It would make empire a bit less familiar, and it would be a boon for the hundreds upon hundreds of empire systems that barely see 5 players a day.



I'm sorry, but why should I spend all day flying around highsec to gather up a handful of ships without getting gouged on tax and mods every time I want to do something? I don't play this game to wander around shopping. I suppose it'd be a nice buff for red frog, but other than that, it would do nothing but annoy people.


It would raise the value of all fitted ships, not only in the isk sense, but also in the temporal sense. Losing a ship would, like in the past, be a big deal. When Eve first came out, one of the reasons it was seen as particularly enticing was the massive consequences that followed death. Losing your ship and possibly your pod in Eve was a lot different than having to resurrect at the graveyard in WoW, or towing your ship in Earth and Beyond; death in Eve exacted a much greater price on the player.

This has changed over the years. One reason is that it is a lot more easy to get isk now then it was in the past. Another reason is that trade hubs allow you to buy and fit ships much more efficiently than in the past. Essentially, the point of this is that if you are careless with your drake and it gets popped, knowing the only thing standing between you and a new drake is not 60 mil, but rather, having to go looking for fairly priced mods, or in the alternative, paying 100 mil at a trade hub, you will treat your ship with the same level of care as a new player treats their first battleship, at a time when it didn't take two weeks to get into one.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-04-29 19:34:01 UTC
Gal Fed wrote:


It would raise the value of all fitted ships, not only in the isk sense, but also in the temporal sense. Losing a ship would, like in the past, be a big deal. When Eve first came out, one of the reasons it was seen as particularly enticing was the massive consequences that followed death. Losing your ship and possibly your pod in Eve was a lot different than having to resurrect at the graveyard in WoW, or towing your ship in Earth and Beyond; death in Eve exacted a much greater price on the player.

This has changed over the years. One reason is that it is a lot more easy to get isk now then it was in the past. Another reason is that trade hubs allow you to buy and fit ships much more efficiently than in the past. Essentially, the point of this is that if you are careless with your drake and it gets popped, knowing the only thing standing between you and a new drake is not 60 mil, but rather, having to go looking for fairly priced mods, or in the alternative, paying 100 mil at a trade hub, you will treat your ship with the same level of care as a new player treats their first battleship, at a time when it didn't take two weeks to get into one.


And why, exactly, do you want to discourage PVP?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-04-29 19:39:34 UTC
Gal Fed wrote:
(1) you will be able to find what you want to buy as soon as you get there, and the price will be among the cheapest in the univers,.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you're killing me, literally. CHEAPEST? obviously you've enver LEFT jita, as lowsec adjacent and other not so traveled systems can be as low as 40% of jita rpice, thats how i sued to make money hauling large quantities of minerals TO jita.

the GOOD thing about trade hubs si that YOU CAN guarantee that almost anything will be for sale there, BUT there is more amrket manipulation and competition, you know, like the real world?
if you would take the time to look around a bit, check other markets, you can usually find waht you wnt cheap, and for all else there is CONTRACTS>

also, arbitrary mechanics to shape the ebahvious of players is bad, m'kay?
Gal Fed
Identifiable Characters Corporation
#18 - 2012-04-29 19:47:51 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gal Fed wrote:


It would raise the value of all fitted ships, not only in the isk sense, but also in the temporal sense. Losing a ship would, like in the past, be a big deal. When Eve first came out, one of the reasons it was seen as particularly enticing was the massive consequences that followed death. Losing your ship and possibly your pod in Eve was a lot different than having to resurrect at the graveyard in WoW, or towing your ship in Earth and Beyond; death in Eve exacted a much greater price on the player.

This has changed over the years. One reason is that it is a lot more easy to get isk now then it was in the past. Another reason is that trade hubs allow you to buy and fit ships much more efficiently than in the past. Essentially, the point of this is that if you are careless with your drake and it gets popped, knowing the only thing standing between you and a new drake is not 60 mil, but rather, having to go looking for fairly priced mods, or in the alternative, paying 100 mil at a trade hub, you will treat your ship with the same level of care as a new player treats their first battleship, at a time when it didn't take two weeks to get into one.


And why, exactly, do you want to discourage PVP?


This would be a downside of making it more difficult to acquire battle ready ships. I would, however, argue that with the current state of things, the satisfaction you get from PvP when you know you are not really truly hurting the other side tends to be more limited.
Gal Fed
Identifiable Characters Corporation
#19 - 2012-04-29 19:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gal Fed
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Gal Fed wrote:
(1) you will be able to find what you want to buy as soon as you get there, and the price will be among the cheapest in the univers,.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you're killing me, literally. CHEAPEST? obviously you've enver LEFT jita, as lowsec adjacent and other not so traveled systems can be as low as 40% of jita rpice, thats how i sued to make money hauling large quantities of minerals TO jita.

the GOOD thing about trade hubs si that YOU CAN guarantee that almost anything will be for sale there, BUT there is more amrket manipulation and competition, you know, like the real world?
if you would take the time to look around a bit, check other markets, you can usually find waht you wnt cheap, and for all else there is CONTRACTS>

also, arbitrary mechanics to shape the ebahvious of players is bad, m'kay?


This is actually how I make most of my money these days. That is why I qualified what I said with 'among the cheapest'. I can tell you with much experience that if you are looking at items worth 150m+, you are on average going to find something in an outer empire region that is significantly cheaper in maybe 1/80 or 1/100 of searches you do (an individual search being every time you check, for example, rokh or maelstrom in a different region).
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2012-04-29 22:34:41 UTC
Gal Fed wrote:


This would be a downside of making it more difficult to acquire battle ready ships. I would, however, argue that with the current state of things, the satisfaction you get from PvP when you know you are not really truly hurting the other side tends to be more limited.



And how would you get any satisfaction when you couldn't get a fight? We want MORE PVP in this game, not less.
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