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CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

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Ismol Mond
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-04-26 05:19:21 UTC
Eve is either a sandbox or it's not. There really is no middle ground.
The moment devs begin to make exceptions to a fundamental element of a mmorpg they have (historically speaking) made more and more changes that tended to make the mmorpg pretty generic.
I know we are getting many players here that are bored of their other games so I guess for some reason it's inevitable that they try and turn this game into what they are used to. That seems to be what most of the posters here want so more power to you.
May as well make starter systems pvp free and get it over with. Just take the roids out to make it somewhat fair.
Howitzer Bunny
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-04-26 06:20:50 UTC
Quote:

CCP has made it quite clear they want to bring new players to this game. GM has made it quite clear that new players in the Rookie Systems are not to be messed with.

WTF is so hard to understand about that?


If the 'new' GM rule is don't mess with them at all.

Why is it so hard to get that offical statement in the following sites where the them selfs point at:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

This was the question Sentinal Smith asked at the first place at the start of the discussion.

Quote:

In general,

"griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.

In EVE, "griefing" refers to various activities, some of which can be argued not to be "griefing" in the classic sense, but parts of valid gameplay.

There are certain forms of griefing that can get you banned from the game. These include (but probably are not limited to) can baiting in rookie systems and certain forms of verbal harassment.]


The next time the GM might decide if you kill some that is a rookie, but in a "legal" system it's still griefing, because it's a rookie.

The only thing I asked make the rules clear. Not to work around them, but to know where the line is about some of non-war actions. If I want to kill someone we start a War.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-04-26 06:30:57 UTC
When i see a rookie mining in a rookie system into his little can I leave him be. If a corp of players mining into a can with orca support and a drake bobbing about in the same system for so called protection. You can bet your sweet manly hairy ass I'm making that can mine.

If I get a warning for that, that is a bit ********. The last time I was in a rookie system I had a Navy Apoc and a Oracle on me.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Othran
Route One
#44 - 2012-04-26 06:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
What would be quite simple, easy to understand and would stop people attempting to find ways around the rules is :

No PvP permitted in rookie systems.

There are no reasons for older players to be in rookie systems other than to bump up very low faction standings or to buy skills.

Oh and if you do go there and spot cans on the undock, do us all a favour and petition the tossers who dropped them.

Plenty of places to get fights in Eve, screwing over people in rookie systems isn't necessary.

Edit - oh and if hulks stripping belts are a problem then remove the belts from rookie systems. Any mining which missions require should be instanced.

Edit 2 - you can see from this thread how people attempt to twist things. Miilla for example knows perfectly well that all 1.0 systems are NOT rookie systems but she continues to muddy the water.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-04-26 06:46:09 UTC
Othran wrote:
What would be quite simple, easy to understand and would stop people attempting to find ways around the rules is :

No PvP permitted in rookie systems.

There are no reasons for older players to be in rookie systems other than to bump up very low faction standings or to buy skills.

Oh and if you do go there and spot cans on the undock, do us all a favour and petition the tossers who dropped them.

Plenty of places to get fights in Eve, screwing over people in rookie systems isn't necessary.

Edit - oh and if hulks stripping belts are a problem then remove the belts from rookie systems. Any mining which missions require should be instanced.


Taking cans at the undock from baiters... it hurts them more to kill them than it does to petition them.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Othran
Route One
#46 - 2012-04-26 06:51:52 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:


Taking cans at the undock from baiters... it hurts them more to kill them than it does to petition them.


I know its tempting but the problem is that you won't be there to do that all the time. Petition DOES get them hit with the banstick, especially if they have a history of kills in the rookie systems.

Frankly they're just a bunch of tossers who should get permabanned IMO - hell you can simply go next-door to the rookie system and that's fine.

Ganking has its place in Eve, but ganking rookies in rookie ships/crapfit frigates/dessies when they're learning the game is just weak. Hell of a ****** way to pad out killboard stats Evil
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#47 - 2012-04-26 08:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Sentinel Smith wrote:
Honestly.. I don't understand people who think knowing the rules is a bad thing.. Imagine if life was like that at home, school, and otherwise in the world..

"Don't speed on this road." "What's the speed limit ?" " Get on a different road." .. o_0

See, there are different kind of rules. The hard ones and the vague ones and each have a purpose.
If you state a rule somewhat vague you purposefully leave a grey area. Within this area, it is up to the police/judge/GM to decide whether you broke the rule or not.
The effect of this is a certain uncertainty, which may appear as a bad thing but often really isn't. Since the goal here is to avoid people walking the line, to push the limits, to find loopholes. On the other hand, it allows GM to show leniance, too. (Also, vague rules are used, when it's very difficult to actually define the limits objectively).

And you have these kind of rules/laws in real life, too.
"Don't drive in a way that recklessly endangers other traffic participants" - "Wait, what classifies as reckless driving?" - "Don't push it, man!"
If you would define "recklessly" by setting limits for speed, acceleration, deviation from the road center, and whatsnot, you'd leave loopholes. Of course, hard rules have a purpose aswell, as they make it easy to deal with obvious cases and are less prone to subjective judgement.

So back to topic:
If you are in a rookie system and in a situation where you wonder "Is this a rookie now or not?", it should be clear that as soon as you have valid cause to even ask this question, the safe course of action is to leave it be. It's a about common sense, really.
Of course you can still ask that question, answer it for yourself as good as you can, but when acting accordingly, you willingly accept the risk that goes along with that. Eve, consequences and stuff ;)
Gerald Taric
NEO DYNAMICS
#48 - 2012-04-26 09:55:13 UTC
Nephilius wrote:
If you are not a rookie, why are you in a rookie system?

Greeting a new corp member in personal, which is stil located in a rookie system? Or gifting him some items, which might be helpfull? Or simply company him?
Zora'e
#49 - 2012-04-26 10:27:22 UTC
I think it is pretty clear myself. CCP has already clarified what they think a Rookie is because after 30 days, you get kicked from the Rookie channel. So.. if the character is under 30 days old, and is in a starter system they are a rookie. Leave them alone. Even if they mess with you.

I won't say you are stupid, but you're not exactly on the Zombie menu either.
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#50 - 2012-04-26 13:24:25 UTC
Why NOT to make rookie systems PvP free systems?

Simple. Because then people who want to avoid getting killed can hop in there and be safe.

If you can't distinguish the difference between a hulk and an Ibis or even magnate by a few day old character then EVE is NOT the game for you.
If you require exact and precise tags on what's a rookie and what's not then EVE is NOT the game for you.
If you want CCP to find the borders of what is acceptable and what isn't then EVE is NOT the game for you.

On one side people complain thatCCP holds new players, and carebear hands too much and on the other side they need a hand held to guide them through what is possible and what isn't

Learn to read the rules and regulations and if in doubt then petition or mail CCP about getting an exact clarification.
Anything not covered under the rules and which can't be classified as exploit or bug is free gameplay untill deemed otherwise.

This is a simple reality in any MMO out there.

Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#51 - 2012-04-26 13:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned S0ul
How people dare grief newbis,really phatetic behaviour, this is almost same behavoir like giving lollipop to small kid and take it back, i hate those people.

One year ago i was in rooki system and i saw some phatetic guy in traranis baiting newbis. so i fit kamikaze rupture and i give to him my alpha strike he was almost rip sadly i forget owerload my guns and he dock with around 4% on hull, but i got satisfaction he got weet pants ;)
Othran
Route One
#52 - 2012-04-26 13:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Killer Gandry wrote:
Why NOT to make rookie systems PvP free systems?

Simple. Because then people who want to avoid getting killed can hop in there and be safe.




Indeed. There are flaws with any system however a nice clear instruction would be helpful.

You could even modify it to say :

No PvP permitted in the 12 rookie systems unless it is between player corps. If one of the aggressors/aggressed is in a NPC corp then the banstick WILL be used. No excuses permitted.

There shouldn't be any asteroid belts in npc systems anyway. Mining "training" should be the same as combat "training" - instanced.

Its the same people who do it time and again anyway. A quick look at people not in npc corps in rookie systems indicates a significant number of them have kills in rookie systems on eve-kill/battleclinic. I just got an alt to look in Hadaugago and there's a guy in there who has over 90 kills of rookie players in the Minmatar rookie systems alone.

CCP need to make the warning about rookie systems a LOT more public, a LOT more specific (no weasel words) and they need to actively police it.

Either that or stop wasting everyone's time on the matter and ignore it, which is what they largely do now.

I'll leave this thread to the people who will try to argue that ganking the crap out of shitfit ships with pilots who couldn't find their way to the nearest trade hub is a good idea for Eve's longevity Roll
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#53 - 2012-04-26 16:58:33 UTC
Ismol Mond wrote:
Eve is either a sandbox or it's not. There really is no middle ground.
The moment devs begin to make exceptions to a fundamental element of a mmorpg they have (historically speaking) made more and more changes that tended to make the mmorpg pretty generic.
I know we are getting many players here that are bored of their other games so I guess for some reason it's inevitable that they try and turn this game into what they are used to. That seems to be what most of the posters here want so more power to you.
May as well make starter systems pvp free and get it over with. Just take the roids out to make it somewhat fair.


it's not a sandbox anymore, the ability to buy plex with rl cash put an end to that years ago. This is the reason I lol every time ccp uses the term "sandbox" in their marketing schemes.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#54 - 2012-04-26 17:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
If a rookie has taken your items from your home system which happens to be a system where new players start then by all emans shoot him. Its not as if rookies have much to lose anyway.

If you get banned you can always argue the GM ban via escalation to someone higher up in CCP. Sometimes the GM's interpretation of the rules leave a lot to be desired although maybe their training might also be thus.
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
#55 - 2012-04-26 17:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shea Valerien
GM Homonoia wrote:
I shall make this real simple: Do not mess with rookies in rookie systems in any way. They are still trying to figure out how to read the overview and how to right click; messing with them at that point in their career is something for bullies who have something to compensate for and only dare to pick on the smallest, weakest boy in kindergarten.


Love that CCP is taking this approach. Ganking rookies is a pretty sad statement about how a person gets their kicks. More players = healthier Eve. Those rookies today = active veterans tomorrow.

To be fair, though, I'm not exactly sure what qualifies as a "rookie."
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-04-26 17:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Severide
Nephilius wrote:
If you are not a rookie, why are you in a rookie system?

It's quite simple. When I started playing and acquiring things I kept them in my station. Now I have a large amout of items piled up and I don't want or need the hassle to move it all. I have stuff in 0.0 but I only take what for me is the bare minimum incase I have to abandon it. So after 4 years, a rookie system is still my "home base"...
ian papabear
No Regard.
#57 - 2012-04-26 19:04:52 UTC
okay so i get the "dont mess with the rookies period" point, but is pvp still allowed in the system? like for example can you pvp with someone who isnt a rookie in that system?

I dont pvp in rookie systems but when i would go to them i would see people pvping outside the staton who arent rookies

.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#58 - 2012-04-26 20:13:39 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Sentinel Smith wrote:
Honestly.. I don't understand people who think knowing the rules is a bad thing.. Imagine if life was like that at home, school, and otherwise in the world..

"Don't speed on this road." "What's the speed limit ?" " Get on a different road." .. o_0

See, there are different kind of rules. The hard ones and the vague ones and each have a purpose.
If you state a rule somewhat vague you purposefully leave a grey area. Within this area, it is up to the police/judge/GM to decide whether you broke the rule or not.
The effect of this is a certain uncertainty, which may appear as a bad thing but often really isn't. Since the goal here is to avoid people walking the line, to push the limits, to find loopholes. On the other hand, it allows GM to show leniance, too. (Also, vague rules are used, when it's very difficult to actually define the limits objectively).

And you have these kind of rules/laws in real life, too.
"Don't drive in a way that recklessly endangers other traffic participants" - "Wait, what classifies as reckless driving?" - "Don't push it, man!"
If you would define "recklessly" by setting limits for speed, acceleration, deviation from the road center, and whatsnot, you'd leave loopholes. Of course, hard rules have a purpose aswell, as they make it easy to deal with obvious cases and are less prone to subjective judgement.

So back to topic:
If you are in a rookie system and in a situation where you wonder "Is this a rookie now or not?", it should be clear that as soon as you have valid cause to even ask this question, the safe course of action is to leave it be. It's a about common sense, really.
Of course you can still ask that question, answer it for yourself as good as you can, but when acting accordingly, you willingly accept the risk that goes along with that. Eve, consequences and stuff ;)


I cannot quote this person enough. Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#59 - 2012-04-26 20:14:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
GM Homonoia wrote:
The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.



What if the Rookies mess with us? What if they shoot us? can we shoot back? etc etc, That means WAR surely?
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#60 - 2012-04-26 20:19:20 UTC
ian papabear wrote:
okay so i get the "dont mess with the rookies period" point, but is pvp still allowed in the system? like for example can you pvp with someone who isnt a rookie in that system?

I dont pvp in rookie systems but when i would go to them i would see people pvping outside the staton who arent rookies


Yes, you can still PvP there. You cannot mess with the rookies there, what you do to other people is your own business. Note that dropping your property into space in a rookie system is not a bright idea. If a rookie gets curious ad takes from the can you had better not shoot him. You do not want a rookie to nab your stuff, do not drop the stuff in a rookie system.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master