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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#161 - 2012-04-26 13:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:

Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.

This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but.

Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.


Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#162 - 2012-04-26 13:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:

Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.

This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but.

Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.


That's all ok if you are an organized group already... Test and Goon do that for their low-sec incursions. But I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together...


In saying that, I wouldn't mind a delay being added to concord in Incursion constellations. Would even play into the storyline of they are busy fighting back the Sansha so their response time is reduced. But complete suspension would just lead to more problems... for instance pipelines would cut off much of hi-sec from others. Can you imagine the amount of complaints there would be if someone set autopilot on their freighter and then while they were heading towards Jita an incursion spawned around them and suddenly they lose a freighter.
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#163 - 2012-04-26 13:51:32 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:

Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.

This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but.

Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.


How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0?
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#164 - 2012-04-26 14:06:43 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Missions, belt rats, incursions, complex's, anoms, exploration, sleeper npc's, selling plex and mining... al of these activities creates isk out of thin air.


No, mining does not create isk. It creates ore, which is sold on the market for existing isk. No new isk is injected into the system by mining. Here are the isk faucets that I know about, in no particular order

- Mission rewards
- Incursion rewards
- Bounties (from missions, ratting, exploration, and...do incursion rats have bounties? I never really paid attention to that detail.
- NPC buy orders (sleeper loot, Overseer effects)

Tech moons, ore, sleeper salvage, faction/officer mods...none of those contribute to inflation.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#165 - 2012-04-26 14:11:12 UTC
Incursion rats do not have bounties.

Missions and Incursions however also have isk sinks in their overall mechanics. Ratting bounties/Exploration bounties and NPC buy orders do not.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#166 - 2012-04-26 14:17:02 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you.


...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion?

You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:
I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together....


And that would all still be possible. Like I said, build your fleet in highsec, then enter the incursion. A little scouting/intel and you'll have more than enough to smash/chase off any would-be gatecamp.

Gudda wrote:
How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0?


How about it? Force projection in 0.0 is a completely different conversation and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#167 - 2012-04-26 14:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodavor
How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that .
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#168 - 2012-04-26 14:40:22 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you.


...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion?

You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:
I believe the idea of incursions were to bring people together to work as a group without needing to already be all blue'd out or alliance mates already. That it was to build a community feel and give people a sense of working together....


And that would all still be possible. Like I said, build your fleet in highsec, then enter the incursion. A little scouting/intel and you'll have more than enough to smash/chase off any would-be gatecamp.

Gudda wrote:
How about this? A incurtion in 0.0 The gang all warps to a tower in system with a jump bridge and WAM they are 10 jumps away from the fleet that you just spent the last 10 hours forming up so that you could gank these scurvy incurtion pilots in 0.0?


How about it? Force projection in 0.0 is a completely different conversation and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed.


ore is not created? Dude how long have you been playing eve? You make no sense at all. Do you even know what game you are playing? What hapens wen a ship is blown up. Does the isk get moved to the guy that blew that ship up? You are trying to talk aloot of sense into us here good sir but you are not making any sense your self, Have you run incurtions? Have you been in low sec hi sec null sec wormhole space? Have you been a part of a big alliance and got sucked into the bloody politics? How old are you ?
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-04-26 14:41:39 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that .


heh... be kinda hard for him... I understand he is on every single blacklist related to incursions in the game Lol

-Arazel
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#170 - 2012-04-26 14:41:40 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Because they're only going to engage in gatecamps and not come flying into the actual incursion plexes with significantly more x your fleet's number and just roflstomp you.


...in a lowsec pocket, surrounded by highsec and full of incursioners. You think they're going to land 15+ ships in an OTA, stomp the incursion fleet, and gtfo without losing ships? And then they'll...what? Take their newly-trashed sec status and haul off to another incursion?

You're not thinking this through. Wiping a full fleet in an incursion would drop your sec status HARD. The people looking to do this wouldn't have a lot of sec to spare in the first place and would quickly plummet into the realm of "free kill" while they are surrounded by high-DPS fleets. Incursion piracy would actually be incredibly hard in such situations.


Really, you haven't thought about the logistics? A group that wanted to could easily have alts ship their stuff from constellation to constellation while they podwarp across highsec. Orcas and/or freighters cover everything they need.


Quite frankly dropping 20-30+ ships on a 10 man fleet already taking damage with an idea of their fleet comp before you even go in? Yeah, it's doable and would happen as soon as this idiotic idea would be put in the game. You forget this is EVE, if something is achievable, there'll be a group there to pull it off.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#171 - 2012-04-26 14:43:49 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Kodavor wrote:
How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet . Run for 3 hours ( counting from the moment you posted your fit for the first time and asked for a fleet ) and see how good you do . Don't post anything here untill that .


heh... be kinda hard for him... I understand he is on every single blacklist related to incursions in the game Lol

-Arazel


Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet!
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#172 - 2012-04-26 14:59:29 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
How about you Mr. Floppie ? How about you go and actualy do them incursions now ? Get into a ship . Go into BTL Pub and get a fleet

I'll just stop you there, because that's where you plan falls apart. I'm on every incursion blacklist there is Twisted

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#173 - 2012-04-26 15:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Gudda wrote:
ore is not created? Dude how long have you been playing eve? You make no sense at all. Do you even know what game you are playing? What hapens wen a ship is blown up. Does the isk get moved to the guy that blew that ship up? You are trying to talk aloot of sense into us here good sir but you are not making any sense your self, Have you run incurtions? Have you been in low sec hi sec null sec wormhole space? Have you been a part of a big alliance and got sucked into the bloody politics? How old are you ?

What I said:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
No, mining does not create isk. It creates ore.

What you read:

????????

edit, as for your other questions:

I've run incursions (briefly, back in October), I've lived in highsec, lowsec, nullsec, and w-space. No I've never played a cog in the alliance machine because I have no desire to be a drone for someone else's profit. My age is irrelevant, and...probably older than you.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#174 - 2012-04-26 15:12:33 UTC
Gudda wrote:
Even if he wasent black listed. I Got a nightmare. I want to run incurtions. And for the last 2 days i have been on the channels posting my fits joining all the groups and yet NO FLEETS? why ? cause there are none. If you have a incurtion fleet up and running and need a high dps nightmare hit me up! ive been waiting for the last 4 hours for a fleet!

I have a Nightmare, too. How I got it is why I'm blacklisted :D

Butterflies born the day the patch came out haven't even died yet, and everyone is throwing up their hands and acting like it's just the end of incursions. That should tell you just how "fun" incursions really are, when people simply bail out of them as soon as the isk faucet gets turned down.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
#175 - 2012-04-26 15:26:52 UTC
The more I think about it, the more I start believing that this Incursion nerf is either CCP being dumb (as usual) or simply a marketing move.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree the ISK/hr was a bit too much and it needed a nerf, but in the context of what's currently happening in eve it's pretty hard to understand the real aim of this nerf.

Is it to reduce the amount of ISK entering the economy? If so, why add an arguably bigger ISK faucet in the same patch (Drone bounties)?

Is it because too few people are accumulating too much isk ? If so how come tech (and moon mining in general, if it's not tech it will be a new bottleneck for tech 2 production) is still untouched? There's maybe 1500-2000 ppl doing incursions, and substantially less that are getting their hands on tech ISK (which is a few ordes of magnitude more that incursion payouts).

And before you say 'it's part of a bigger income rebalance CCP will get to later', I've been playing since 2007 and I can't name a single thing that CCP promised to iterate on at a later date and actually has..

Only reason I can see (barring cluelessness) is that it's a marketing move to appease the economic doomsayers (EVE economy does have a problem, since isk enters the game almost 2x as fast than it exits). They can pound their chests proudly and say 'we're doing something', and the incursion community is not large enough to cause much of a stir (or income issues even if they all quit).
Loysy
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2012-04-26 16:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Loysy
I have many bad economist ^^

More isk is good for pvp --> more loss
More isk is good for economy --> many buy
More isk is good for mining --> many build
More isk is only bad for Plex

Stopping plex trade and finished problem... ^^

Install a decreasing price over time for the player and other accout and problem is resolved, the economy was never as good as now...

Less isk is very bad for economy...and player.

Anyway there are players who hate to farme, which will buy always plex...
It will always be easier to work one hour Irl more than farmer
Not bother to hide the eyes, I'm right
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#177 - 2012-04-26 17:22:45 UTC
Loysy wrote:
I have many bad economist ^^

More isk is good for pvp --> more loss
More isk is good for economy --> many buy
More isk is good for mining --> many build
More isk is only bad for Plex

Stopping plex trade and finished problem... ^^

Install a decreasing price over time for the player and other accout and problem is resolved, the economy was never as good as now...

Less isk is very bad for economy...and player.

Anyway there are players who hate to farme, which will buy always plex...
It will always be easier to work one hour Irl more than farmer
Not bother to hide the eyes, I'm right


Not enough producers and too many isk farmers -> Economy is in full failcascade mode if you haven't looked at the prices recently, no amount of isk farming is going to make enough isk soon to buy ships and modules. T2 prices have more than doubled and are set to explode even higher.
Loysy
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2012-04-26 17:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Loysy
Yes before, producers and miner is bad for win isk.
Now is better, with time many producers and miner come back.
Before miner and producers were discouraged.
The economy naturally going to be balanced.

The big error ccp, is nerf loot level 4, large werk in first and now the meta 0.
In addition it is the young player that is penalized here, only young player looting.
this action with lots of minerals and less on the market and creates an imbalance.
the last new ship (nocti, BC 1/3...) use many ore for product.
I think ccp want to ship and ore become more expensive.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#179 - 2012-04-26 17:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.

they're mad because they're in their right place.

if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you
Miss Yanumano
Cadence Industrial Syndicate
#180 - 2012-04-26 17:47:42 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
these hisec bears have been spoiled by CCP for too long.

they're mad because they're in their right place.

if you claim that you're more about community and interactive between players, a bit reduce in isk wouldn't bother you



So what do you have to say to null/low sec Incursion runners that got hit too?