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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#141 - 2012-04-26 08:01:20 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
Cobalt Rookits wrote:
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Good god some of you idiots actually think that the "smart AI" rats in Incursions constitute "risk."


Go into a site by yourself then, after all its no "risk".

good god, gtf out of hisec

Because incursions exist solely in highsec...

Also, at some points, incoming dps in specific incursion sites can top 10,000 incoming dps, peaking at about 13k in a tcrc. You don't have numbers like that and not have a bit of risk, especially if you're a logi. It might not be other players shooting at you, but you're still depending on a group of logis who sometimes need machine-like efficiency to keep you alive. The same risk as running through gatecamps in nullsec? Not so much. But compared to ratting in your thanatos with nothing but blues for 30 jumps? I'm not so sure.


last time I tried warp a marauder into escalated C5 site on sisi, it get instant poped.

and your incursion is ****, you only need 3 logis??

we have to use triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive and the sleeper has enough neut to neut out the carrier, lucky me that they only did it once, not so lucky that I lost that carrier, but hey, I don't go on forum and whine about that as risk.

so ya, incursion is very risky

and fyi, I dont live in nullsec, I live in wh where ppl don't get aggro timer and can jump after as soon as you jump and bubble the **** up

plus you won't see a fleet jumping on you until a cloaky T3 decloak and point you


FYI, just because you are in wh space, does not change a bit his argument about null sec risk.
Furthermore just because you HAVE TO use triage carries does not make it risky per se. It just makes standards logistics unsuited for the job. Actually it makes me wonder why you just have to use a single triage carrier, are they not supposed to be way more effective in pairs?

Can you now please make a real argument?

Remove insurance.
Templar Nato
#142 - 2012-04-26 08:25:23 UTC
How did this end up as a ****-swinging contest between PvE content in WH space and Incursions? idgi

"My PvE content is more bad ass than your PvE content" doesn't exactly move the conversation forwards.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#143 - 2012-04-26 08:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
None of it is "bad ass", you're shooting red crosses. But there isk risk involved...dude here is trying to argue that wormhole content has more of it than equivalent incursion sites but, as best I can tell, was equating a C6 with vanguards.

Leads back to the "risk free isk" argument that so many people are using.

thhief ghabmoef
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#144 - 2012-04-26 08:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodavor
Mr ... can you please educate yourself that there is more to Incursions then only Vanguards ? Once you do that then please return here .
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#145 - 2012-04-26 08:46:38 UTC
And we're back to the "make incursion sites a duckshoot" argument. Which is as likely to happen as the "Put all L4's in lowsec" argument.


Seriously, if you people are going to whine about carebears, try putting your efforts towards something that is likely to happen, and not something so remotely stupid there aren't even odds for it happening.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Templar Nato
#146 - 2012-04-26 08:57:58 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Leads back to the "risk free isk" argument that so many people are using.


Seems like most people who use that argument haven't run Incursions. It's usually the crutch of people who are angry because they feel like they're not being compensated properly for what ever they do to make their Eve income.
Templar Nato
#147 - 2012-04-26 08:59:18 UTC
If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them?
Dark Aiden
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-04-26 09:09:15 UTC
I think personally CCP wants to get less subcribers maybe because..

1) they made mining profitable.....But now it cost double what it use to in order to buy ANYTHING
2) Now that prices have sky rocketed lets completely F*&K OVER INCURSIONS so those who relied on incursions for isk can't

This seems like CCP is just out to fail cascade them selves more then they already are....
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#149 - 2012-04-26 09:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
Templar Nato wrote:
If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them?


They are boring? People did not notice? People did not want that ISK anyway? People did not want to make an alt for them? People did not like the nomadic lifestyle? People have better things to do? People needed to defend their tech moon instead? People have no bots to run them? People preferred isk from explorations? People preferred farming sanctums with their titan? People preferred more ISK from Wormholes? Market games are way more profitable than Incursions ever were and so people preferred them? People preferred to afk or bot mine on 10 Accounts? People could make more isk in missions than in bad vg fleets?

There are many good reasons not to run incursions even when they are top money.
Just pick one of many reasons, or chose a reason not listed here.


Templar Nato wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Leads back to the "risk free isk" argument that so many people are using.


Seems like most people who use that argument haven't run Incursions. It's usually the crutch of people who are angry because they feel like they're not being compensated properly for what ever they do to make their Eve income.


Sounds about right, and in many cases they are actually really not properly compensated. In many other cases they are to dumb to pick something that will compensate them properly.

Remove insurance.
Templar Nato
#150 - 2012-04-26 09:14:21 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
Templar Nato wrote:
If Incursions were such amazing, risk-free ISK why wasn't everyone running them?


They are boring? People did not notice? People did not want that ISK anyway? People did not want to make an alt for them? People did not like the nomadic lifestyle? People have better things to do? People needed to defend their tech moon instead? People have no bots to run them? People preferred isk from explorations? People preferred farming sanctums with their titan? People preferred more ISK from Wormholes? Market games are way more profitable than Incursions ever were and so people preferred them? People preferred to afk or bot mine on 10 Accounts? People could make more isk in missions than in bad vg fleets?

There are many good reasons not to run incursions even when they are top money.
Just pick one of many reasons, or chose a reason not listed here.


That's pretty well my point ... Even though the ISK was attractive, people weren't running Incursions to the exclusion of everything else.
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#151 - 2012-04-26 11:35:28 UTC
i have played this game for a long time. And i quit 2 years ago. Heroes of newerth became more atractive and pirates of the burning sea. Then my friend called me and told me about these incurtions. I went to his house. Saw him runing them and my faith in eve was restored. After the speed nerf they did. And the jump bridges/bubbles/cloaky's they just ruined it for me.

To the od 0.0 guy that is all like "blinged out ships wtf i cant blow it up waaa waaa" stop crying. Just stop it cuz you are pathetic. 0.0 and 0.7 are as difrent as 0.0 0.4 is.

I think ccp shuld be adressing jump bridges in 0.0 rather than this so people like me will actualy want to go pvp in 0.0.
Limit the ship size to a capital ship for jump bridges.

If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.

It was fun to be able to jump in to something realy fast and not have to sit around in a station and spinn your ship. Now its back to siting in a station and spining my ship. Thanks ccp for ruining my hope for this game.
Castor II
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-04-26 11:58:50 UTC
Gudda wrote:
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.


Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#153 - 2012-04-26 12:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gudda
Castor II wrote:
Gudda wrote:
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.


Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.


are you sure? Last time i looked they all had bountys+ they drop boxes that gurante you at least 400 mill per a 10/10 complex. And concord buys those boxes? Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

o and complexes drop disks that are sold to concord i think to for at least 50% of the profit you make in a wormhole.
IMeres
Hellfire Heavy Industries
#154 - 2012-04-26 12:15:57 UTC
Castor II wrote:
Gudda wrote:
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.


Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.


According to the latest dev blog on the matter (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115) incursion rewards were less than 1/3 of bounties, and yet CCP introduced more bounties with this patch.

Comparing reduction in incursion payouts vs. drones giving bounties right now (and the amount of bots in the Drone regions) I'm quite confident that more ISK will be entering the economy overall.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#155 - 2012-04-26 12:19:22 UTC
Castor II wrote:
Gudda wrote:
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.


Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.


The economy constantly needs fresh isk being pumped into it. With new players, new characters comes a new demand, otherwise you'd just spread the existing wealth thinner across an increasing playerbase till either everyone has no money or you're one of the few that holds all the cards.

The current economy has gone skewed because of drone changes affecting mineral panic buy affecting ship production costs. A kneejerk reaction to that would be stupid.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#156 - 2012-04-26 12:20:10 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:

FYI, just because you are in wh space, does not change a bit his argument about null sec risk.
Furthermore just because you HAVE TO use triage carries does not make it risky per se. It just makes standards logistics unsuited for the job. Actually it makes me wonder why you just have to use a single triage carrier, are they not supposed to be way more effective in pairs?

Can you now please make a real argument?


since when triage carrier need to go in pair??

you sound pretty clueless of how capital level thing works plus remember, once capitals in sites, they're committed until the site is done, no where to run if enemy fleet show up.

have you seen 50b lost from WI? their fleet comp is stupid but that's what you get farming C5 and someone opens to you
Gudda
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#157 - 2012-04-26 12:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gudda
IMeres wrote:
Castor II wrote:
Gudda wrote:
If you so hapen to be stupid enugh to think that these incurtions are making more money than 0.0 you are sadly mistaken. A 0.0 10/10 8/10 can drop mods worth over 2 billion and only take 20-30 minutes to do with 3 people. And if you hapen to find a un occupied c5 wormhole you are in for a treat.


Module drops in nullsec don't "create" isk, they transfer existing isk from the buyer to the seller. Same goes for wormholes. Now bounties and mission\incursion payouts create isk out of nothing, which should be handled better IMO.


According to the latest dev blog on the matter (http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115) incursion rewards were less than 1/3 of bounties, and yet CCP introduced more bounties with this patch.

Comparing reduction in incursion payouts vs. drones giving bounties right now (and the amount of bots in the Drone regions) I'm quite confident that more ISK will be entering the economy overall.


dont forget that they can create a jump bridge from one region to the other. It would be nice if we could make a 4 jump bridge from jita to agil. But we cant can we? Traveling time is longer in 0.5 and above its shorter in 0.4 and in 0.0 you can create your own route trugh space now cant you? Personaly i think jump bridges shuld be nerfd. Changed so that only biger ships can get trugh jump bridges. Titan bridge shuld only be able to drop cruiser and battle ships. And black ops shuld be the ones doing the stealth frigates/battle ships and shuld be the only ships capable of droping frigate sized ships on any one.

edit. Dont forget that a jump bridge tower in 0.0 is more secure than even jumping in 1.0! why? cuz you can get insta poped in a freghter if a big enugh group decides to do so. At a tower you have to do aloot more work to gank a freghter than in 1.0 And when is the last time you ganked a indy full of awzome loot? you cant cuz they are eather cloaked or somone uses there jump freghter to transport whole fleets from one place to the other. 0.0 Is to safe for people that have the time and effort to build up there own seccurity. Leaving the lone wolf solo pvper no choise but to try and go to worm hole space and pvp there. Now i tried that to. Only to be ganked by 5 tengus that where just cloaked at one of the sites i went to. Eve sucks now a days if you want to do a small gang of ships fleet and fly into 0.0. You gona have a bad time. trust me
Loysy
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2012-04-26 12:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Loysy
Bonjours tous le monde, désolé pour mon anglais....

Bon déjà, pourquoi grand nerf sur incursion, je ne dit pas que avec certaine fleet assez rare, c'était un peux trop rentable pour les vg.
Mais, cela restait assez exceptionnel, -10/20% aurai été correcte pour les VG et même +10/20% pour les autres type (hq,assault)

Je pense que beaucoup de gens de 0.0 et en WH, parlent à tord des incursions, il n'en n'ont jamais fait ou peux...
Et si c'était si facile, pourquoi il n'y a pas plus de joueur en train d'en faire...?
Quand, je regarde mon ally et corpo amie, on est 3 personnes à faire des incursion sur plus de 100 personnes.
Le risque est là avec des ship coûteux, ce n'est pas en fessant 2H d’incursion que l'on devient riche.
Cela demande une très bonne organisation, des très bon ship, de nombreuse heures, pour arriver à de bon résultat, ce qui est rarement le cas.

En ce moment une level 4 est plus rentable en solo avec un bon ship...(qui est facile et ennuyeuse, solo et sans organisation)
On tue les incursion qui sont du pve élite a plusieurs personnes (vive mmo)

Mon avis personnel:

Je trouve le jeux très déséquilibré et ne favorise absolument pas le PVP.
Le 0.0 gagne beaucoup trop de isk et est très peux risque pour l'ally qui s'y trouve.
Le WH est peux dangereux pour sa rentabilité.
Le low sec est dangereux, mais on y trouve personne, car il n'y a aucune rentabilité, pourquoi?

Je propose, que l'on supprime le meta 4 en high sec, que le meta 4 soient loot en blet low sec.
Que l'on multiplie par 4/5 le pop loot faction en belt low sec .
Que les officier pop en belt low sec et pas en 0.0 où c'est sécurisé, pour les gens qui y vivent.
Que les minéraux rare se trouvent en low.
Quand au gens qui font de la piraterie, une baisse de standing bien plus élevée, histoire d'avoir bien plus de pirate reconnu.

Le 0.0, il restera tous ce que l'on trouve habituellement: les moon, les mineraix, les plex 10/10, les mission plus rentable, incursion plus rentable, etc... le tous avec un sécurité assez bonne, vu que les 0.0 est relativement bien sécurisé.

Cela favorisera énormément le pvp et les risques, donneras au gens de vrais raison pour allez prendre des risques.

Quand au Wh, c'est bien trop abusé...et isole les joueurs, on ne devrai pas permettre au gens d'y habité.

ou alors, supprimer les bulle en 0.0, cela apportera bien plus de visiteur donc de risque...et de pvp

C'est mon point de vue bien sur... ^^
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#159 - 2012-04-26 13:21:42 UTC
To address the issue of the difference between creating isk and transferring isk.

Missions, belt rats, incursions, complex's, anoms, exploration, sleeper npc's, selling plex and mining... al of these activities creates isk out of thin air.

The bonus is for some of these activities you are also given loot, which does sell for a lot of isk... But one thing I'm unsure of, is who buys the majority of faction/deadspace modules in hi-sec. Because as I remember it's mostly incursion runners. That incursions have actually helped to increase the market for high-meta modules. That running complex's and such is more profitable today because of incursions.

The price of faction stasis webs is an obvious indicator. Federation Navy Webs were less than half their current price when incursions started. But since they kinda became a standard for most BS running Vanguards the prices rocketed.

Meaning everyone that farms their tags and hands them in to create fed navy webs (lvl4 mission runners) are getting more money for their LP.

The same goes for Faction Damage mods, EANM's and Tracking enhancers/computers. All of these have increased in price, partly thanks to incursion runners.

The same can go for the T2 rig sales. They have went up also with the popularity of incursions.

So, tell me how incursion runners are bad for the economy in eve... when we help stimulate the economy for people looting/producing these items.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#160 - 2012-04-26 13:31:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To those advocating the removal of concord from incursion systems:

Do you honestly think that people will still do them? I'm seriously asking. To me it seems pants on head ******** to go to a series of (effectively) lowsec systems with such easy access to highsec and almost guaranteed to be camped to hell. Anyone with half a brain who still had any interest in them would probably be better off doing the incursions in normal lowsec than trying to PvE in the gankfest those locations would become.

This is of course ignoring the technical difficulty which could be involved in making sec status and penalties dynamic in the first place. Add to that the implications on highsec route plotting/auto piloting. The concept seems simple but I'd be willing to bet the implementation is anything but.

Sigh. Okay, here's how you solve the "problem" of the incursion constellation going lowsec: Stage up in a neighboring highsec. Come through the gate with your incursion fleet put together so that any gate camp will have to fight an organized high-DPS fleet with logi support. If you bring 2-3 VG fleets through at the same time we're talking a 30-ship fleet full of battleships and T3s with a half-dozen logis supporting them. With a marginally competent FC, they'd demolish almost anything they run across. This would be a lowsec pocket in the middle of highsec, not FW or borderland low.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.