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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

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ATTAKowl
Standard Issue Strategic Action
#101 - 2012-04-24 05:29:20 UTC
Im sure one of the Caldari friggies (kestrel or condor) will get that 5% shield resist bonus that theyre taking from the Merlin after they get around to publishing all of the changes. I like turning it into a hybrid platform, its the opposite of our recent missile platform hookbill. Maybe theyll make the battleBantam something to fear hehe.

I havent seen the details on the changes to rigs mentioned in this thread, but it does sound like something to be nervous about. I like my shield ships to be FAST!
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-04-24 05:49:47 UTC
Active tanked incursus tickles me in a good way

Hello, hello again.
Nevermore Akiga
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-04-24 06:08:47 UTC
merlin?
pure gun ship? with less tank? and short in speed?
come on.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-04-24 06:18:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

  • Tormentor: role changed from mining frigate to medium range combat vessel
  • Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler
  • Merlin: overhauled role to fit medium-long range turret platform
  • Incursus: overhauld role to fit close range brawler
  • Rifter: role untouched, it already is made of win and dipped with awesomesauce


Tormentor: it's unfair that Amarr will be the only faction without mining frigate. Even more unfair that other factions will be stuck with only 1 usefull frigate while Amarr have 2.
Punisher: proposed changes seems right.
Merlin: terrible idea. You are converting good frigate to weakened Harpy that is rarely used anyway, sniper rail frigs are worthless because of miniscule alfa and terrible DPS.
Incursus: pigeonholing into active armor tanking is a tricky thing. If proposed rig changes will occur I doub't anyone will fly this cap-hungry ships (Blasters+Reps+Propulsion) that have increased signature.
Rifter: pure buffs, but I cannot say will it be in line with other combat frigs or not. Anyway I will be only glad if winmatar won't be superior choice here.
Hugo Adama
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-04-24 07:05:25 UTC
could you stop making gallente ships with fat ass sigs? seriously.
Freeman05
#106 - 2012-04-24 07:11:27 UTC
Keep your hands on Merlin! Evil
Max Teranous
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#107 - 2012-04-24 08:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Teranous
OK, had a ponder.

The issue I'm having here is that it's hard to understand where you're going with the role thing across the board, when you're only showing us the "combat" subset on a single class of ship. This makes it hard to feedback on the specifics of each ship change. For example, I can't decide if i like the loss of the shield resists on the Merlin as i don't know if another of the frigs will get that slightly more tanky (for a frig) bonus/role instead. I just don't know what you're doing with the other 5 Caldari frigs! Same for the other races. The same goes with how this role thing scales up the classes of ship.

What i'd like to see is for you to take 1 faction, and to show us what you're thinking horizontally with the role and stat changes for all 6 frigates, so that we can see how each frigate fits in with the others across the roles. And i'd also like to see how those roles scale vertically, so again, same faction, show us the role and stats of say 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser, 1 BC & 1 BS. That way we can see within a race, within 1 ship class how it works fully and how it will scale up the classes of ships with some real stats and bonuses defined.

Cheers,

Max Cool
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#108 - 2012-04-24 08:36:59 UTC
My only hope is the tristan don't become a missile boat but a drone boat ! Missiles are just not gallente, even the bomber is a bit strange even if it make sense.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#109 - 2012-04-24 09:10:21 UTC
I don't 'get' the merlin changes.

It is currently quite viable in many ways somewhat similar to the Tristan and has a ton of viable ways to fit it. Instead of stomping on the one viable heavy tackler the T1 frig line has (punisher really suffers from no web) why not buff another Caldari frig for hybrid use?
And that seems to be reasoning here; adding a purely hybrid wielding frigate to the T1 Caldari line up.

But I think you're ruining what's currently one of the few viable T1 non faction frigates (besides the Rifter) for higher skillpoint pilots that fly T1 frigates. You'd be better off buffing something currently unused like the Condor or the Bantam for this.

Changing the Merlin by making it seemingly worse is an odd way in my opinion to add variety.
Asura Cascade
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-04-24 09:38:13 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I don't 'get' the merlin changes.

It is currently quite viable in many ways somewhat similar to the Tristan and has a ton of viable ways to fit it. Instead of stomping on the one viable heavy tackler the T1 frig line has (punisher really suffers from no web) why not buff another Caldari frig for hybrid use?
And that seems to be reasoning here; adding a purely hybrid wielding frigate to the T1 Caldari line up.

But I think you're ruining what's currently one of the few viable T1 non faction frigates (besides the Rifter) for higher skillpoint pilots that fly T1 frigates. You'd be better off buffing something currently unused like the Condor or the Bantam for this.

Changing the Merlin by making it seemingly worse is an odd way in my opinion to add variety.


+1 for Condor/Bantam loving.

Please don't mess up the Merlin! It's my favourite little tackler/brawler/rocket-spewing/blaster-shooting boat.
Calistai Huranu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-04-24 09:39:07 UTC
Like the Merlin becoming a hybrid boat, but taking away it's resist bonus is Bad, not at all impressed.

And as to the Frigate changes, why oh why those ones, when there's the tier1 combat frigates of each race that need the love more..

The Atron, Condor, Executioner, and Slasher should of been top on the list to improve, not three of the most popular T1 frigates..

Something akin to making the above tier ones a 9 slot layout with a slight improvement to grid/cpu would make them almost on par with there fellows.

Seriously CCP, It's the ship's that are least flown that need the love, not messing about with the Puni, Merlin, etc.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#112 - 2012-04-24 09:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
i see problem here...

with proposed changes to rigs:

rifter(fastest here) (spd=355)with shield rigs will make it's speed comparable to incursus (spd=340).

incursus(with biggest sig here) (sig=42) with armor rigs will be at even bigger disadvantage (eg. rifter sig=35).
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-04-24 12:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Whelp, figure i might as well womble over here as well.

merlin changes... DON'T PANIC

what we lose: heavy tank combat frigate with a split weapon layout

what we gain: baby harpy

don't believe me? pull up an incursus and a merlin in evefit side by side and start thinking it out...

lets say a ion/rocket merlin with 1 EM rig, 2 extender rigs, a MSE and a damage control, thats around 7.5k EHP

if we remove the 5% resist per level bonus that drops down to 6.1k EHP, so we're losing 1.4k EHP, bit bad :(

what do we get in compensation though? if we look at the incursus (with its 5% damage/level bonus like the proposed merlin and 3 turrets) we find a significant dps boost.

with ion blasters and rocket launchers

current merlin with void/rage = 122 dps
new merlin with void = 148 dps

so we gain 36 deeps

however, we also get a extra lowslot on the new merlin? what could we plug in there... a magstab!

current merlin with void/rage = 122 dps
new merlin with void + magstab in the lows = 182 dps

so we lose 1.4kEHP but gain 60 dps, there are certainly worse things to happen to the ship.

and hey, ALL shield ships are going to get slower, so even if they don't change the merlin's bonuses and slots around it'll be slower than before :/

where do merlins fight in pvp? close to mid range with web/scram using blasters or rails to kite other frigates and hammer them to death with antimatter. will it be any different? not really. will we OMGWTF200DPSFACEMELT them now? hell yes ^^

[Merlin, theory]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

might just be a rough "theory" of what the new merlins might look like, but the certainly doesn't look like a bad ship

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
El Geo
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#114 - 2012-04-24 12:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: El Geo
technically only military ships would be designed to fill certain roles whereas civilian classes would be more general, my vote CCP is instead of buffing tech 1 frigates and trying to pigeon hole them just bring out some more navy/pirate ships (some simple reskins you would be done in less than a week), im sure the military wouldnt use the standard incursus available to the rest of the universe Big smile

one a sidenote, why dont any of the empire navies use the teir 2 and 3 battlecruisers? never seen a drake on a gate or in a mission...

CDIA Based overlay resource for After Effects 6

Eve pathfinders Youtube
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#115 - 2012-04-24 13:16:11 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Plans for the frigate class (remember all of this is still WIP for the time being):

  • Split and re-purpose frigates into Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support roles (includes revamping mining frigates into this)
  • Have a look at Rookie frigates to make them more versatile but less efficient than revamped frigates
  • On the power ladder, tech 1 frigates should be less effective than faction / tech 2, but more forgiving and flexible with their fittings


OK, let's start here.

If you are going to have a difference between "Combat" and "Attack" then what you have in the OP as of the time I post this is 4 "Attack" frigates and one "Combat" frigate (at least by the apparent definitions from previous posts).

Get your terms straight first, define the roles more clearly, then you have a chance of getting constructive feedback about particular designs.

I might suggest:
"Attack" - Medium to long range turret DPS (what you mostly have here).
"Tackle" - Short range, high durability. minimum 3 mid slots, interdiction and ECM bonuses.
"Bombardment" - Long range missile boats.
"Combat Support" - bonuses to remote ECM and remote repair
"Utility" - Bonuses to mining, cargo cap, scanning, salvaging, etc.

There are obvious skips in this set, but you can see where the skips are because it's all defined.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Kelsar Hemah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2012-04-24 13:34:01 UTC
In General I think and overhaul off the current frigs sounds great and I have been looking forward to this for a while.

Feedback
I think its good you have changed the speed to be a lot closer to each other and pretty much ever frig expect the rifter gained a fair bit off speed. I also like that must frigs got an good chuck off extra shield/armor/Hull, which should inscrease there overall EHP, the exception is ofc the Merlin which lost the resist bonus. The reduction in overall cap I didnt see comming and I think it might be abit to much the cap level off frigs will become very low making neuts against frigs even better then they are already which I think is a shame because its what really stopping frigs from engaging larger targets

Tormentor: Nice with a new ship, stats seems to be good for what its purpose is and ingeneral it looks promising

Punisher: Flew a punisher alot personally and the the changes a pretty good overall, might even be a bit to much but it really depends on if lasers stay the way they are now. The damage bonus is good instead off the cap, and will make lasers on punishers much better for 1v1 then they are currently. The extra PG will help fit the lasers + the buffer you will be using. This will make it on par with the other frigs, ofc a extra mid slot would be nice but I feel that might make it to good if it suddently can control range, do to have lasers work

Merlin: I generally like the idea off changing the resistance bonus when its for a damage bonus, as it deffently makes up for it. I would have ever rather see it with its old slot setup but the Rifters hard pointset up, this will suddently give a huge amought off set up possiblitys that you didnt have before, while not losing the once we used to love, besides caldari do use missiles. I dont like the idea that you want it to be a range ship, another bonus would be cool for instance a shield repping bonus like the incurses could be cool

Incurses: It really sounds cool, a repping bonus on a frig is nice, Im just hoping that the cap removial isnt gonna force this into always using cap boosters if you wanna rep, because they you will most likely end with a really though frig which no one ever wants to fight unless they have and advantage against it

Rifter: Was pretty good, already I the changes mostly make it better, everyone loss more can they it do so it have gained a lot on the cap race, it have gain some very valuable extra hp that it was lacking comparied to the others giving it more buffer. it will lose its huge speed advantage compaired to the others which will hurt it a fair bit.
Darirol
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2012-04-24 13:56:04 UTC
Ines Fy wrote:
Just a reminder. Please don't forget frigs have also a role you are forgetting: open cynos for caps!

We use some frigs with high CPU + big cargo space to open cynos to move our caps arround. Please do not destroy CPU or cargo space of those frigs during these changes, or you will have the fury of every capital pilot directed to you soon!

Big smile



all my cyno alts use noobships for cynos - they are free on every station and a t1 frig means 2500m³ more cargo to move. sucks if you want to spread 100 cynoships to your cynoalts for a cyno chain and have to move 100 t1 frigs :p
Hashmallum
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-04-24 14:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hashmallum
Callic Veratar wrote:
The changes from the original are in brackets.

INCURSUS:

  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level (new)
  • Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M (+1), 4 L (+2), 3 turrets, no launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG (+11), 135 CPU (-25)
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 (+87) / 450 (+82) / 500 (+132)
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (-45) / 180 s (-54.38) / 1.55 (+0.16)
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (-4) / 3.15 (+0.005) / 1028000 / 3.0 s (?)
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km (-7.5) / 600 (-20) / 4 (+1)
  • Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
  • Signature radius: 42 (-2)



The Incursus has had 3 mid slots for a while. Also, the CPU has been buffed from a base of 110 to 135 (+25). Looks like a simple typo but the slot changes are incorrect. I wonder what other corrections need to be made? I just noticed the Incursus because I fly one and haven't had any experience in the other frigates listed so I won't comment on those.

My comments on the Incursus: I don't like the lack of choice when fitting defenses, and armor rep bonus limits choice in how one fits their ship if they'd like to take advantage of their bonuses. It's why people use hybrids on hybrid bonused ships and autos on projectile bonused ships. Being able to fit buffer is a viable and attractive option for many in frigate combat - especially for ships whose weapons drain capacitor, like Gallente ships.

Speaking of the capacitor stock reduction, I don't understand why they would encourage you to fit the ship with armor repairers yet reduce the capacitor stock. The slight increase in recharge rate makes little difference since frigate combat is not decided by your cap recharge rate. I fear this ship won't be slightly countered by neut; it will be dominated by it. No damage and no tank without cap, and with a smaller capacitor stock it will die much, much quicker.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#119 - 2012-04-24 14:54:08 UTC
Yeah the Merlin change is interesting. At the moment it's a good frigate, so losing the resist bonus is a shame. But we've got to keep the optimal bonus because that's what Caldari railboats have. So it's a straight choice between shield resists and damage. The current tanky Merlin demonstrates that shield resists can work; the Naga demonstrates that range and damage can also work.

So, I dunno lol. Lol
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-04-24 15:15:31 UTC
Downloading now. If this "great re-balance" is just the 5 frigates mentioned, I'm going to fly to Reykjavik and personally defecate on their doorstep.