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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

First post
Author
Arbiter Reformed
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#61 - 2012-04-23 18:29:42 UTC
is this an indication of wanting all active bonu's to be 10%?

its been a l.ong time coming..
Vitalius D'Fox
Siberian Squad
Siberian Squads
#62 - 2012-04-23 18:35:15 UTC
I usually do not whine. But this this time things get serious
I can't accept this merlin nerf. We already have useless kestrel

i can deal with
Commander Slavin wrote:
MERLIN
Im totally fine with making the merlin a 100% gun boat, but the best thing about the frigate is that 5% to shield resistances per level. Its why this ship is my favourite T1 frigate, its why I use it for 1v1s and its why im worried about the change.

Can we just have the 5% to damage and 5% to shield resistances?


But not with No damage/No tank/No speed piece of gallente-like scrap.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#63 - 2012-04-23 18:36:38 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I don't doubt your capabilities. Not sure looking at it on paper but it seems to have no other real weaknesses other than neut vulnerability, that said is it such a bad thing?


Being slow with a massive sig radius and no HP is a pretty good weakness...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Kalaratiri
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#64 - 2012-04-23 18:41:31 UTC
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:

But not with No damage/No tank/No speed piece of gallente-like scrap.


Well, looking at the incursus bonuses, that particular bit of scrap is going to kick your face in :)

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#65 - 2012-04-23 18:55:03 UTC
Merlin:

I can understand the desire to repeat the Naga's success on a smaller scale. It won't work on the frigate level though. A kiting Merlin would have to be faster then other frigates to maintain range. It would need a tracking bonus to reliably hit targets while going fast. The Merlin has neither of these traits. The ship is beat served with a shield resistance bonus and a damage bonus.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#66 - 2012-04-23 19:01:55 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:

1) Drop the hybrids and swap to 3 missiles. Give it a missile bonus and leave the shield resists


This is a hookbill with a tank bonus. We really don't need that.


Or a Kestrel with a tank bonus.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#67 - 2012-04-23 19:07:13 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Merlin:

I can understand the desire to repeat the Naga's success on a smaller scale. It won't work on the frigate level though. A kiting Merlin would have to be faster then other frigates to maintain range. It would need a tracking bonus to reliably hit targets while going fast. The Merlin has neither of these traits. The ship is beat served with a shield resistance bonus and a damage bonus.


I was thinking about that, but Void S with an optimal bonus is super duper sexy. Also, that kills the central idea behind Rail Merlins... All things considered: +1 to Dmg + Resists.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Kalaratiri
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#68 - 2012-04-23 19:09:49 UTC
Lord Haur wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:

1) Drop the hybrids and swap to 3 missiles. Give it a missile bonus and leave the shield resists


This is a hookbill with a tank bonus. We really don't need that.


Or a Kestrel with a tank bonus.


So keep the kestrel as it is... and give it a tank bonus :p Problem solved.

I'd prefer to either keep the merlin's split weapons, or focus it on guns. That way, the caldari have a full turret line-up from frig to BS, as well as the missile ships.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Callic Veratar
#69 - 2012-04-23 19:19:43 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Lord Haur wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:

1) Drop the hybrids and swap to 3 missiles. Give it a missile bonus and leave the shield resists


This is a hookbill with a tank bonus. We really don't need that.


Or a Kestrel with a tank bonus.


So keep the kestrel as it is... and give it a tank bonus :p Problem solved.

I'd prefer to either keep the merlin's split weapons, or focus it on guns. That way, the caldari have a full turret line-up from frig to BS, as well as the missile ships.


Remeber that there's still the Bantam, Condor, Griffin, and Heron to fit in there. The Griffin will likely stay ECM and one of them will likely be some form of support ship, but that's only 2 of 4.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-04-23 20:05:54 UTC
Ines Fy wrote:
Just a reminder. Please don't forget frigs have also a role you are forgetting: open cynos for caps!

We use some frigs with high CPU + big cargo space to open cynos to move our caps arround. Please do not destroy CPU or cargo space of those frigs during these changes, or you will have the fury of every capital pilot directed to you soon!

Big smile


Just dreaming, but maybe the frig that will fill the role of mining can also fill this role and have a small bonus for cyno activities???


**** your risk free capital ship movement.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#71 - 2012-04-23 20:20:23 UTC
With their PG and range bonus, what's the likelyhood of us getting sniper beamfit Tormentors?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Lelob
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#72 - 2012-04-23 20:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Quote:
PUNISHER

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill leve
Slot layout: 4 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launcher
Fittings: 55 PWG, 124 CP
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 500 / 45
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 180 s / 1.6
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.35 / 1047000 / 3.28
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 /
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 /
Sensor strength: 9 Rada
Signature radius: 37


This is very interesting. This is a very odd thing to do with the cap though. I am wondering if this will discourage lasers in favor of the old autocannon bleeder fits

Quote:
MERLIN

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per leve
Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launcher
Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CP
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 35
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.4
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 /
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 /
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetri
Signature radius: 39


This thing will own really hard, but if you are trying to get more people to active tank, you won't be achieving that goal by removing the shield resist bonus. This just screams mse, scram, web, ab/mwd, blasters with 150-250 dps. I think you might also be trying to get people to fit rails, but blasters on this ship will **** the pants off of most things


Quote:
INCURSUS

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per leve
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launcher
Fittings: 45 PWG, 135 CP
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 450 / 50
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 / 180 s / 1.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 / 3.15 / 1028000 / 3.0
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 /
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 600 /
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometri
Signature radius: 42


This cap reduction seems fairly iffy, especially with the rep bonus. The rep bonus, low cpu addition, and 4 slots seems like you are deliberately forcing people to fly duel rep incursii with no webs which seems ~meh~ . I would honestly prefer to fly the current incursus then the one you are proposing. Turn the armor rep bonus to a falloff bonus and you will have a nice little ship, but this thing would probably die, or fail to mantain range control on the current incursus and kill nothing. I foresee this ship becoming really boring to fight against with the kind of tank it might be able to achieve.
Javius Rong
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
#73 - 2012-04-23 20:43:05 UTC

Very interesting first step, but no one will rail fit the Merlin with it being so slow and allowing for no way to kite effectively. I see it as a blaster fit with those 4 mids going MWD, web+scram, shield mod.

So I am hypothesising that taking the Caldari as an example...

Combat: Merlin (Med-long range)
Attack: Condor (tracking + resists)
Bombardment: Kestrel (ROF + Missile Velocity)

Support:

Heron - Covert/Scan
Bantam - Mining
Griffin - E-war


How soon till we see the rest of rebalance. Taking just combat class it is a bit hard to compare ships and roles.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#74 - 2012-04-23 20:45:05 UTC
I understand that this is by no means complete and this is only your first round of frigates being looked at; but the balance between races that seem traditional are:

amarr - king of armour tank they have the 5% resist per level
caldari - king of shield tank they have the 5% resist per level
minmatar - active tank bonus (shield)
gallente - active tank bonus (armour)

it seems that the punisher is keeping its brawling resists and caldari are not receiving any.
unless of course your plan for the "bombarding kestrel" is to give it 5% shield resist per level in which case I will fall deeply in love with it.

that said, this staggered release of frigate updates seems to do nothing but breed mayhem.

i'd recommend doing your best to release your 'vision' for the other frigates as quickly as possible so players can give a better opinion on the overall changes taking place as opposed to looking at a single run of frigates.
Fracture Antollare
TEMPCO CORP
#75 - 2012-04-23 20:58:58 UTC
Quote:
INCURSUS:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG, 135 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 450 / 500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 / 180 s / 1.55
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 / 3.15 / 1028000 / 3.0 s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 10 (TEN)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 600 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 42


FTFY - More drone capacity.
Xorth Adimus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-04-23 21:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorth Adimus
Not much of any use here just moving some deckchairs about on the Titanic,

Ships need a key role yes.. but all truely great ships have two roles and a range of fits and should allow short or long range combat

TORMENTOR:
New bonuses: 10% to small energy turret range and 10% bonus to small energy capacitor use per level

Should work ok short or long range (mini apoc)


PUNISHER:
New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill level

All hail our new Amarr overloads!


MERLIN:
New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level

Got an issue with this and it upsets the whole caldari rail line up, range bonus is mostly pointless with T2 spike .. merlin, Ferox and Rokh and T2 varients should have 5% bonus to hybrid damage 5% bonus to hybrid turret range and 2.5% resists per level. Harpy shows how this could work well (even though it is T2 hull/ bonus).


INCURSUS:
New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level

This could work and fits in with the line up of brutix, hyperion however I always thought this would be more useful if it was split into something to help get to range (be it short or long).

5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness per level 15% increase in agility per level during MWD use (higher acceleration).


RIFTER:
Unchanged bonuses

Agree already win sauce


Also T1 frigs need a 'general role bonus', I'd suggest something as follows:

  • 2.5% reduction in base signiture radius per level
  • 10% bonus to afterburner speed per level
    +5m2 drone space
    +2.5% increase on webifier strength per level
    -5% bonus on cap use using propulsion scrambling modules
    Another option is to be more generous with T1 hull cpu and PG so new players can fit them easily and older players can go back and slap a 400mm plate or a medium extender on them without too much worry or rigging and full fit them out in all kinds of fun interesting ways.


Other T1 ships need a similar role bonus not as strong as a T2 bonus but totally unique useful (not overpowered) on T1s and something you give up when you use a specialised T2 hull.

Rig changes are kinda terrible for shield extending, I always thought the sig issues with 3 rigs is more of a dubious choice these days with Teir 3 Bcs and battleships / titans about blapping people. So its pretty balanced but not perfect since it is overused with little competing alternative. Such as sig reduction rigs...

I think that signiture needs to be more of a key area of balance were smaller signiture, especially on frigates is a major selling point (and the adverse being a real issue for larger ships with extenders!), ships with smaller sig should be the bane of any ships with larger turrets not just lol 'blap' (see above).

If you are looking at T1 cruisers next I would suggest they also get new roles and brand new bonuses to support them, not just rearranging the same tired old ****.
Kalaratiri
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#77 - 2012-04-23 21:11:47 UTC
Xorth Adimus wrote:

Another option is to be more generous with T1 hull cpu and PG so new players can fit them easily and older players can go back and slap a 400mm plate or a medium extender on them without too much worry or rigging and full fit them out in all kinds of fun interesting ways.


Just a note about this: The tormentor under the proposed changes actually has a higher base PG than the retribution. Sounds like enough to me :p

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#78 - 2012-04-23 21:13:50 UTC
While I generally like these changes, are these all the ships that are going to be balanced in Inferno? Or is this just what you have so far, more to come? What about all the other frigs that are basically useless once you have trained "[racial] Frigate III"?

How about a support frigate, not necessarily ewar? Why not have a remote repair [range/cap] bonus (similar to cruisers) on a T1 hull?

I really hope there is more to come, as much as I like the changes, the list is a bit short...
Frothgar
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#79 - 2012-04-23 21:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Frothgar
Kalaratiri wrote:
Xorth Adimus wrote:

Another option is to be more generous with T1 hull cpu and PG so new players can fit them easily and older players can go back and slap a 400mm plate or a medium extender on them without too much worry or rigging and full fit them out in all kinds of fun interesting ways.


Just a note about this: The tormentor under the proposed changes actually has a higher base PG than the retribution. Sounds like enough to me :p


You mean we might actually see something use small beams outside of a crusader?

I like how the ships compare to one another, though I'm a little sad about the merlin having optimal instead of 5% shield resist/level. If anything should be a short range brawler its the merlin vs the condor being more of a light missile/kiting ship.

Just IMO.

I'm just happy that frigate hulls are getting some love and might actually have enough options to generate more than 1 cookie cutter fit.

Just off of the proposed stats I can think you could do the tormenter via any number of fittings such as close range pulse/scram, lower tier pulse, plate, scram, AB. Beams and shield extender with long point. Beams with TDs.

I can actually think of half a dozen fits I want to try instead of the current situation where its "This is how you fit a rifter, don't really do it any other way"

Edit: Can't wait to see what they do with T1 cruisers. WTB 250mm rail deimos, Beam omens, Blaster Moas etc.
Lelob
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#80 - 2012-04-23 21:38:28 UTC
You can already do a blaster moa and it ******* owns. Shocked