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Goons "legalising" botting!!

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Nyio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-09-29 02:02:11 UTC
Keno Skir
#62 - 2011-09-29 02:04:27 UTC
I'd also like to hear CCP's thoughts on this specific problem. It seems incredibly un-productive to have the head of the CSM as a bot supporting cheater Shocked The letter does clearly state that botters are known of and protected by the Goon management, which should surely be an offence..

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Jita Alt666
#63 - 2011-09-29 02:05:08 UTC
I do not believe that the Goon propaganda piece is promoting/protecting/condoning botting. The method in which they are attempting to limit this particular breach of the EULA is in-house rather than player directly to CCP. While you will assert it is not in their domain. CCP have previously indicated that is in their domain.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2011-09-29 02:06:05 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
As far as the bit that states if you report any member of GSF for botting you will be kicked.
Well all things considered, that in of itself is actually within their rights.
(CCP does not enforce corp or alliances rules in regaurds to recruiting or removal of members)
As for the rest, well that is up to CCP.

So you are fine that deliberate, publicised condoning of EULA breaches is kosher and any act to report said EULA breach will get you booted?

Quote:

All things considered if the OP was really concerned they should have sent the message to CCP under a petition and let them figure it out.

I seriously hope they do! The source is a matter of public record. As OP what I want to know is whether this is a clear and deliberate condoning and protection of players that breach the EULA.

This forum has been done to death regardng bots and the oppostion to it is pronounced and unequivocable. To encourage EULA breaches from an alliance that has CSM members smacks of hypocrisy and tells every player that botting is fine - Mittani's boys said so and CCP did nought about it!

Quote:
To that I say TROLL........

To that I say LOL



There is nothing on the EULA that states that i am required to report a bot when i see one and there never will be because recognizing a BOT is by default done entirely by the use of circumstantial evidence. So you cannot punish me because i haven't reported someone who i can't prove with 100% certainty is a bot.

And since nobody is OBLIGED to report a bot, they can't punish anyone from strongly suggesting that someone else under his command doesnt do it either. Reporting a bot is your right? Well, so is speaking in local chat... and nobody does jackshit about alliance leaders who kick members for speaking in local chat.


AND BY THE WAY, that makes me as pissed as the next guy. Botting may be bad, but not reporting on a bot when you see one is worse. Let alone threatening those who want to.


Unfortunately your logic is pretty flawed.

The EULA states something about 'you are not allowed to run bots/macros etc', yes?

If CCp had effective anti botting mechanics in place, then the EULA would state something similar to 'Botting/scripting/macros is a bannable offense and you will be caught'

So from the wording of the existing EULA AND the continuation of bots from Goons (and others), it should be clearly implied that CCP needs a lead to work from. Realisticly you can appreciate this is the truth with the amount of work going on there all the time, limited resources etc etc.

In a sense, players ARE obligated to report botting. Just because there is no threat to players who spot a bot and not report it doesn't mean it's OK to not report bots.

Moving on from that, has there been any bot banned at all from no petition raised about it?

Has CCP banned bots from no leads what so ever? Think about it.

Lastly, bots in high sec are pretty easy to spot and report, i am sure many peopel do that all the time in high sec.

Not the case in Deklein.

No one else is around there except other goons. You could say the goons are using their numbers and sov as a cover or buffer zone to permit botting, and they are permitting it.

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Apollo-Moor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2011-09-29 02:14:36 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
I missed the part where it said "Don't report bots." Can you bold it for me?


***** plz.. Really?

Ya'll whole corp is a fuckin joke.. LOL
The Apostle
Doomheim
#66 - 2011-09-29 02:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Quote:
In a sense, players ARE obligated to report botting. Just because there is no threat to players who spot a bot and not report it doesn't mean it's OK to not report bots.

And this is why the reporting of bots must be kept inviolate from alliance/corp policy and alliance/corps attempting to interfere in reporting/non-reporting of EULA breaches should also be guilty as charged.

(and I know personally that CCP has set a precedent on this - unfortunately I cannot discuss how I know).

Quote:
Moving on from that, has there been any bot banned at all from no petition raised about it?

Has CCP banned bots from no leads what so ever? Think about it.

Well, we simply wouldn't know would we? And this point has been raised. If CCP actively do a "name and shame" of bots then we'd all be the better placated. If it's seen to be getting addressed, regularly and with quotable ban details/numbers.... Hmmm. I wish.

But it still flies in the face of even bothering to stop bots when large alliances decide to publically advocate and protect botting. For it to be from an alliance where it's head is also the CSM head.... Shameful. (I accept they are not the only ones botting, what I don't accept is how they reportedly deal/not deal with it "inhouse".)

That is clearly sending the wrong message, in and out of game.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-09-29 02:59:45 UTC
TL;DR OP selectively cannibalized what Endie said in his announcement to try and smear goons

"Blue-On-Blue Violence

One of our illustrious members (let's call him "Ibertizzle") keeps losing Tengus to Russians and French people. This is a sensitive - even a touchy - subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter - a very keen ratter if we are honest - we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don't **** other goons. Oh and we don't play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either: that's Darius Johnson's job. So two rules. And there's the one about how nobody mentions the Mittani's occasional chin tuft; and the localised No Digis or DBRBs rules. I could go on. Ok, on reflection we live in a hidebound and overly legislated nanny state. But we definitely don't **** goons. Now I know that "Ibertizzle" has probably just been insulting people constantly in local and challenging them to 1 v 7s at the sun. Which is fine: honour demanded that he repeatedly die for his offences.

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples' liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-******* to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues. And by allowing one, well-justified blue-shooting case to go unpunished we basically open the portal to a hellish other-dimension of horror and chaos which ends with "hilariously" wrecked amok freighters on the VFK undock. Which sounds good but involves a lot of paperwork.

The correct approach is to speak to your CEO, who will submit form 240a together with the mandatory handling fee of 150 million ISK to the overworked diplomacy team, who will curse me loudly for putting that in there then go about finding a solution. Trust me: they have his number on speed-dial by now."
The Apostle
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-09-29 03:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Mara Tessidar wrote:
TL;DR OP selectively cannibalized what Endie said in his announcement to try and smear goons

"Blue-On-Blue Violence

One of our illustrious members (let's call him "Ibertizzle") keeps losing Tengus to Russians and French people. This is a sensitive - even a touchy - subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter - a very keen ratter if we are honest - we have one rule in Goonswarm: we don't **** other goons. Oh and we don't play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either: that's Darius Johnson's job. So two rules. And there's the one about how nobody mentions the Mittani's occasional chin tuft; and the localised No Digis or DBRBs rules. I could go on. Ok, on reflection we live in a hidebound and overly legislated nanny state. But we definitely don't **** goons. Now I know that "Ibertizzle" has probably just been insulting people constantly in local and challenging them to 1 v 7s at the sun. Which is fine: honour demanded that he repeatedly die for his offences.

But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoples' liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-******* to report him or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues. And by allowing one, well-justified blue-shooting case to go unpunished we basically open the portal to a hellish other-dimension of horror and chaos which ends with "hilariously" wrecked amok freighters on the VFK undock. Which sounds good but involves a lot of paperwork.

The correct approach is to speak to your CEO, who will submit form 240a together with the mandatory handling fee of 150 million ISK to the overworked diplomacy team, who will curse me loudly for putting that in there then go about finding a solution. Trust me: they have his number on speed-dial by now."


So which bit didn't get quoted and which bit "exonerates" the Goons.

Now go back and tell me in a "TL;DR" what I'm requesting?

bah. Forget it. Just noticed you're a Goon. Nuff said..... Give Mittens a kiss for me yeah?

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2011-09-29 03:13:55 UTC
You just noticed I have "Goonswarm Federation" under my name?
The Apostle
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-09-29 03:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You just noticed I have "Goonswarm Federation" under my name?

Yes. I generally do not judge a persons commentary by who they are in game so I do not look.

In your case, given the response, I did.

Players may be tethered by alliance/corp policy in-game, they are not tethered out-of-game because of alt posting.

You on the other hand cannot agreee with me in public even if you did agree with me - wearing your Goon badge precludes your objectivity. i.e. It's a waste of time trying to argue the point with you.

I'm not after more Goon opinion/rhetoric, I'm after opinion from NOT Goons.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Psychophantic
#71 - 2011-09-29 03:40:44 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You just noticed I have "Goonswarm Federation" under my name?


I didn't notice either because I'm using the Sylish script for these pages.

But now your earlier comments make perfect sense.
Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#72 - 2011-09-29 03:43:33 UTC
Hee hee, how adorable!

CCP has turned a blind eye to botting, including reported bots, for years. If they don't care enough to enforce the EULA, there's no reason for me to care care if somebody breaks it. All the EULA does now is create an uneven playing field between people who bot and people who are scared to.
Bubanni
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2011-09-29 03:49:33 UTC
Test alliance does the same thing, one time a old corp mate of mine found a botter and killed him... it turned out to be leetcheese, a military director of test at the time, someone also reported him... which resulted in the guy loosing about... idk 5-15 bil...

Regardless to say, test forced the corp to kick him...

So yeah, its common practice within that coalition that your not allowed to kill or report botters if they are blue

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Magnus Orin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-09-29 03:49:47 UTC
I dont bot, nor do I support it, but is it every ******* corp or alliance's job to police this game?

No. It's CCP's.

That's all I get from the statement in the OP.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#75 - 2011-09-29 04:04:19 UTC
Quote:
I dont bot, nor do I support it, but is it every ******* corp or alliance's job to police this game?

No. It's CCP's.

That's all I get from the statement in the OP.

Lol. To be expected.

What I said is that it's is NOT the alliance/corps job to police the game. The EULA is a contract between CCP and the individual and for an alliance/corp to dictate how the reporting of EULA breaches are handled is way outside the scope of the alliance/corp.

Let me put it this way, if an alliance (as a whole) was given a 1 week ban for knowingly harbouring/supporting a botter, how fast would the alliance say IT'S NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY!!!

And yet, same alliance has taken it upon themselves to dictate EULA breach policy to it's members. So is it an alliance responsibility or not?

Either they are responsible for bot reporting/management and must pay the penalty (as an alliance) if caught or they are not and must allow the individual do their thing without fear of retribution due to corp policy if they do.

Can't have it both ways.

I just want to see bots out of game. I also want to see blatant promotion of bots and the idea that it's not our problem removed too!

It IS our problem and CSM members of all people should be leading the charge - not laughing at it.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
The Apostle
Doomheim
#76 - 2011-09-29 04:08:15 UTC
Quote:
Test alliance does the same thing, one time a old corp mate of mine found a botter and killed him... it turned out to be leetcheese, a military director of test at the time, someone also reported him... which resulted in the guy loosing about... idk 5-15 bil...

Regardless to say, test forced the corp to kick him...

So yeah, its common practice within that coalition that your not allowed to kill or report botters if they are blue

Speaking of DekCO, FA has a clear policy of killing bots and I've seen them do it.

They do not have a policy on whether members can report/not report. Nor does Test.

"Common practise" versus "shouting it out and enforcing no-reporting in public" are 2 different things.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-09-29 04:16:37 UTC
Yes, what is Fatal Ascention doing about Dec Co's bots? Ignoring them i bet.

"Fight the honourable fight! And let OUR bots be the only ones flying!"

It would take balls for someone from FA, even a highsec neut to say 'i am from FA, and we have submitted x amount of petitions against Cec Co's bots and they have been removed'. But i am guessing we will never know.

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The Apostle
Doomheim
#78 - 2011-09-29 04:22:46 UTC
Quote:
Yes, what is Fatal Ascention doing about Dec Co's bots? Ignoring them i bet.

QFT.

FA spends a lot of time in Goon space and Zagdul is not going to **** off Mittens by killing his bots regardless of his personal beliefs (which I do not think have changed).

Their policy as best I've seen, is enforced only in FA space. The policy of kill/not kill is not shared across DekCo.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
pussnheels
Viziam
#79 - 2011-09-29 04:24:41 UTC
LMAO look at all those goons and their puppies in denial

This isn't really new is it , we all know Goons leadership and other alliance leadership are abunch of cheaters and liars

Maybe it is about time CCP starts to punish the corporations and alliances of whom those re offending botters belong to or is linked with , with some serious bans

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#80 - 2011-09-29 04:25:37 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Either they are responsible for bot reporting/management and must pay the penalty (as an alliance) if caught or they are not and must allow the individual do their thing without fear of retribution due to corp policy if they do.

Can't have it both ways.



Do I really need to link false dichotomy here? Really?

There's nothing in the EULA or TOS saying that you can't tell others not to report rulebreakers, or that you can't punish people who do.