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Goons "legalising" botting!!

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Author
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#41 - 2011-09-29 00:57:03 UTC
IMHO OP read too much into this. To me it reads "we have rules about harming other members, however in some cases...".

There is obviously a fine line between keeping your members from blowing each other up/reporting bullshit and preventing your members from embarressing your corp.

In UO I held a botter from a major guild for ransom in public and got paid, you don't want this to happen to your corp, I milked thier shame, lol [WAKA]s Shocked

I'm an American, English is my second language...

Jita Alt666
#42 - 2011-09-29 01:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jita Alt666
A point the Op needs to take on board:

In the past CCP has contacted alliance directors and ordered them to bring their alliance into line when individual members of that alliance have gone against the EULA examples I can remember from the goons include:
Posting of common world war 2 german phrases in local.
General Spam in local.
Creation of phallic shaped can arrangements in space.
Naming of Stations with names that are not approved by CCP.
In all these cases a CCP GM contacted either a director or alliance CEO and insisted that individual police the alliance and limit the rule breaking.

Here is the part of the relevant topic you excluded to copy/paste from Eve news24:
Quote:
And by allowing one, well-justified blue-shooting case to go unpunished we basically open the portal to a hellish other-dimension of horror and chaos which ends with “hilariously” wrecked amok freighters on the VFK undock. Which sounds good but involves a lot of paperwork.

The correct approach is to speak to your CEO, who will submit form 240a together with the mandatory handling fee of 150 million ISK to the overworked diplomacy team, who will curse me loudly for putting that in there then go about finding a solution. Trust me: they have his number on speed-dial by now.


This is essentially the alliance saying: don't shoot your mouth off, don't cause internal ructions that damage us all, pass to the diplomats who will sort it out. While you may disagree with that, CCP have set a precedent, if they see that the Goons directors are doing their bit to limit the rule breaking they will be happy.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-09-29 01:01:27 UTC
Quote:
Your tears are delicious.

In a game where everyone bots; the only thing left to do is bot. Seriously, the onus is on CCP to fix the game, not the players.

Man, you're right. I'm crying my eyes out!!

It's because I am laughing SOOOOOO hard at your "CCP should fix this" comment. How quaint.

You know, people that think botting is stoppable by code are seriously kidding themselves, and I mean seriously kidding themselves.

Botting can only be stopped by players actively reporting them. It's YOUR game being ruined.

This is the issue at hand.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#44 - 2011-09-29 01:02:05 UTC
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah ..........


the **** should i care.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

The Apostle
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-29 01:06:33 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
A point the Op needs to take on board:

This is essentially the alliance saying: don't shoot your mouth off, don't cause internal ructions that damage us all, pass to the diplomats who will sort it out. While you may disagree with that, CCP have set a precedent, if they see that the Goons directors are doing their bit to limit the rule breaking they will be happy.


Fair comment and point is taken on board.

Except....

I'm not talking about blue shootings am I?

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

The Apostle
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-09-29 01:07:57 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah ..........

the **** should i care.

Cared enough to tell us you don't care. Much appreciated.

As you were.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Jita Alt666
#47 - 2011-09-29 01:09:05 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
A point the Op needs to take on board:

This is essentially the alliance saying: don't shoot your mouth off, don't cause internal ructions that damage us all, pass to the diplomats who will sort it out. While you may disagree with that, CCP have set a precedent, if they see that the Goons directors are doing their bit to limit the rule breaking they will be happy.


Fair comment and point is taken on board.

Except....

I'm not talking about blue shootings am I?


shoot your mouth off, does not mean shooting with lasers...
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-09-29 01:12:02 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
IMHO OP read too much into this. To me it reads "we have rules about harming other members, however in some cases...".

There is obviously a fine line between keeping your members from blowing each other up/reporting bullshit and preventing your members from embarressing your corp.

In UO I held a botter from a major guild for ransom in public and got paid, you don't want this to happen to your corp, I milked thier shame, lol [WAKA]s Shocked


I don't think he reads too much into it, just that he mistakes this for being news.

It has nothing to do with embarrassing people, it's about getting hit in the real world pocketbook, something the alliance leaders DEFINITELY do not want. 0.0 is all about the RMT. For instance, players frequently associated with the continent of Asia have been systematically milking 0.0 for the RMT business for almost 7 of the 8 years this game has been active.

It's no secret and CCP doesn't do anything about it, because if they did it would impact them negatively. An active player is an active player and money in CCP's pocket. Impact to the game economy be damned, they'll never fix it at the expense of the effects on CCP's REAL WORLD economy.

Anyone that thinks otherwise is incredibly naive. The bigger the RMT business, the healthier eve online the business is. Sure the ingame economy takes a hit but nothing that it hasn't absorbed in the history of the server being online. CCP's efforts to stop the RMT trade is nothing but smoke and mirrors...

The only people that get busted are the buyers dumb enough to get busted. Next time around those people will buy from CCP instead, but CCP will never go after the dealers themselves.... that would be tantamount to shooting themselves in the foot.
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#49 - 2011-09-29 01:15:01 UTC
Source?
I'm not doubting you, it'd just take someone INCREDIBLY THICK to post an alliance update which condones botting that obviously.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-09-29 01:16:39 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
A point the Op needs to take on board:

This is essentially the alliance saying: don't shoot your mouth off, don't cause internal ructions that damage us all, pass to the diplomats who will sort it out. While you may disagree with that, CCP have set a precedent, if they see that the Goons directors are doing their bit to limit the rule breaking they will be happy.


Fair comment and point is taken on board.

Except....

I'm not talking about blue shootings am I?


shoot your mouth off, does not mean shooting with lasers...

Hey. Yer. Fair point again.

Except....

"don't cause internal ructions that damage us all"
How? Reporting is anom and it's not discussed by CCP. Dare me to say Goons need to control who is/isn't reported? Why?

Either way, it's NOT their call. Ever.

As soon as any player reports a bot to another player he has removed the anonymity assured by reporting directly to CCP. Hence my absolute conviction that the process of reporting/not reporting bots is NOT and nor should it be, an alliance issue.

CCP need to make this very, very clear.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-09-29 01:17:35 UTC
Alright a little reality check.

First off killing an alliance mate can ony be authorized by the ruling councel of the alliance or the ceo/director of the person being targeted..

Nothing weird there pretty normal practice actually.
Someone breaks the rules you report them to leadership and hope they tell you to pod them.

As far as the bit that states if you report any member of GSF for botting you will be kicked.
Well all things considered, that in of itself is actually within their rights.
(CCP does not enforce corp or alliances rules in regaurds to recruiting or removal of members)
As for the rest, well that is up to CCP.

All things considered if the OP was really concerned they should have sent the message to CCP under a petition and let them figure it out.

Instead they posted it on the forums.
To that I say TROLL........
The Apostle
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-09-29 01:18:53 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Source?
I'm not doubting you, it'd just take someone INCREDIBLY THICK to post an alliance update which condones botting that obviously.

They did and it's legit.

Got access to Goon forums?

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#53 - 2011-09-29 01:29:31 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah waaaah ..........

the **** should i care.

Cared enough to tell us you don't care. Much appreciated.

As you were.



Not exactly. I asked why should i care.

If someone bothered to post something like that, is because he/she thinks that someone other then him/herself ought to care.


But in the end its nothing but whining and crying and moaning because nobody is going to do jackshit about it. CSM/Goon leader doesn't care that this **** goes public so why the hell should I. It might be unethical on his part but he is NOT breaking any EULA.

Botting = breaking the EULA.
Seeing/knowing about someone who BOTS and not REPORT = No grounds for legal action.


Notice even how he was carefull enough not to make any direct mention to botting whatsoever. Dude understands the legal system and he does his best to bend the rules thats why people call him a jerk. He bends, but he doesn't breaks.. so anyone who complains is just doing useless whining because nothing is going to be done about it.


To the OP. C'est la vie.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

The Apostle
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-09-29 01:29:36 UTC
Quote:
As far as the bit that states if you report any member of GSF for botting you will be kicked.
Well all things considered, that in of itself is actually within their rights.
(CCP does not enforce corp or alliances rules in regaurds to recruiting or removal of members)
As for the rest, well that is up to CCP.

So you are fine that deliberate, publicised condoning of EULA breaches is kosher and any act to report said EULA breach will get you booted?

Quote:

All things considered if the OP was really concerned they should have sent the message to CCP under a petition and let them figure it out.

I seriously hope they do! The source is a matter of public record. As OP what I want to know is whether this is a clear and deliberate condoning and protection of players that breach the EULA.

This forum has been done to death regardng bots and the oppostion to it is pronounced and unequivocable. To encourage EULA breaches from an alliance that has CSM members smacks of hypocrisy and tells every player that botting is fine - Mittani's boys said so and CCP did nought about it!

Quote:
To that I say TROLL........

To that I say LOL

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

The Apostle
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-09-29 01:33:34 UTC
Quote:
Notice even how he was carefull enough not to make any direct mention to botting whatsoever. Dude understands the legal system and he does his best to bend the rules thats why people call him a jerk. He bends, but he doesn't breaks.. so anyone who complains is just doing useless whining because nothing is going to be done about it.

Very true. The wording makes it very easy to mitigate the intent of the content. And many here are trying to do exactly that. Go figure.

Quote:
To the OP. C'est la vie.

Yeah. I know. [sad panda face]

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Jita Alt666
#56 - 2011-09-29 01:35:25 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
A point the Op needs to take on board:

This is essentially the alliance saying: don't shoot your mouth off, don't cause internal ructions that damage us all, pass to the diplomats who will sort it out. While you may disagree with that, CCP have set a precedent, if they see that the Goons directors are doing their bit to limit the rule breaking they will be happy.


Fair comment and point is taken on board.

Except....

I'm not talking about blue shootings am I?


shoot your mouth off, does not mean shooting with lasers...

Hey. Yer. Fair point again.

Except....

"don't cause internal ructions that damage us all"
How? Reporting is anom and it's not discussed by CCP. Dare me to say Goons need to control who is/isn't reported? Why?

Either way, it's NOT their call. Ever.

As soon as any player reports a bot to another player he has removed the anonymity assured by reporting directly to CCP. Hence my absolute conviction that the process of reporting/not reporting bots is NOT and nor should it be, an alliance issue.

CCP need to make this very, very clear.



I have a couple of PVE alts that when the need arises rat (anomalies - pre nerf) in a quiet system in a quiet region. The longest run I have ever done is only about 12 hours (I could not handle doing more than that). During that time only 3 other people came into the system. I didn't respond to convos due to duel boxing eve and playing Civ V on my third screen. If either of those alts had been reported for supposedly botting - I would know who did it.

In my post above (#42) I sight examples of CCP making rule enforcement an alliance issue. The precedent has been set, and while you personally disagree, the precedent was set by CCP. So any alliance has the ability to say to their members - tell us about rule breakers and we will sort them out.

I personally believe what will happen with this in regards to goons is that they will sacrifice a couple of low level members who are obviously botting. Reporting the to CCP and saying to CCP; look we goons are doing our bit to curb this rule breaking, while turning a blind eye to others who are more significant players.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#57 - 2011-09-29 01:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
As far as the bit that states if you report any member of GSF for botting you will be kicked.
Well all things considered, that in of itself is actually within their rights.
(CCP does not enforce corp or alliances rules in regaurds to recruiting or removal of members)
As for the rest, well that is up to CCP.

So you are fine that deliberate, publicised condoning of EULA breaches is kosher and any act to report said EULA breach will get you booted?

Quote:

All things considered if the OP was really concerned they should have sent the message to CCP under a petition and let them figure it out.

I seriously hope they do! The source is a matter of public record. As OP what I want to know is whether this is a clear and deliberate condoning and protection of players that breach the EULA.

This forum has been done to death regardng bots and the oppostion to it is pronounced and unequivocable. To encourage EULA breaches from an alliance that has CSM members smacks of hypocrisy and tells every player that botting is fine - Mittani's boys said so and CCP did nought about it!

Quote:
To that I say TROLL........

To that I say LOL



There is nothing on the EULA that states that i am required to report a bot when i see one and there never will be because recognizing a BOT is by default done entirely by the use of circumstantial evidence. So you cannot punish me because i haven't reported someone who i can't prove with 100% certainty is a bot.

And since nobody is OBLIGED to report a bot, they can't punish anyone from strongly suggesting that someone else under his command doesnt do it either. Reporting a bot is your right? Well, so is speaking in local chat... and nobody does jackshit about alliance leaders who kick members for speaking in local chat.


AND BY THE WAY, that makes me as pissed as the next guy. Botting may be bad, but not reporting on a bot when you see one is worse. Let alone threatening those who want to.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Zverofaust
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-09-29 01:40:25 UTC
Why is that EVERY TIME I see someone CAPITALIZING every few words in their post, I can ALWAYS expect that post to be full of CONSPIRACY THEORIES and OVER-DRAMATIZATIONS?

What is it that makes these kinds of PARANOID NUTJOBS type in this way? Has there ever been any SCIENTIFIC STUDY on the phenomenon?
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2011-09-29 01:58:56 UTC
This whole situation reminds me of something Lewis Black said...

Basically, the last eight years, I feel, the Republicans stood around farting; and the Democrats went "Ooh, let me smell it."

You can replace Republicans with Goons and Democrats with CCP.

Just one more instance of how things are broke and won't get fixed.
"If."
The Apostle
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-09-29 01:59:42 UTC
Quote:
There is nothing on the EULA that states that i am required to report a bot when i see one and there never will be because recognizing a BOT is by default done entirely by the use of circumstantial evidence. So you cannot punish me because i haven't reported someone who i can't prove with 100% certainty is a bot.

No. And I have said this. Whether to report/not report is up to the individual. Being told not to report is an entirely different matter.

Quote:
And since nobody is OBLIGED to report a bot, they can't punish anyone from strongly suggesting that someone else under his command doesnt do it either. Reporting a bot is your right? Well, so is speaking in local chat... and nobody does jackshit about alliance leaders who kick members for speaking in local chat.

Except that talking in local chat is allowed under the EULA.

Botting is not.

To TL;DR my entire rant. I am asking that CCP consider making the promotion/protection/condoning of botting as a breach of the EULA. To attempt to circumvent the individuals bot reporting rights in the interests of any corp/alliance (not just Goons) must be deemed as inappropriate and bannable.

The EULA is a contract between you and CCP. Not with the alliance/corp the member is in. An alliance cannot and should not promote/encourage breaches of the EULA. It is not in their domain.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]