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Is the Legion getting any love for Inferno?
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Matrix Operator
#41 - 2012-04-16 22:44:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.

-Liang


I'm just brain storming. Do you have any ideas?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#42 - 2012-04-16 23:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Tanya Powers wrote:

Well I consider my self not having "bad" skills at all for Tengu since I maxed those from the beginning with one of my toons so I can surely state that it's just impossible to get 1K dps from a T2 Tengu fit.
...


A few comments:
- You keep obsessing over whether a Cerb outdamages a T2 fit Tengu. Why? Nobody T2 fits their Tengus, and nobody even flies the Cerb. The Tengu utterly and completely obsoletes the Cerb, even if the Drake doesn't quite (yet). It boggles my mind that you would assert people not being able to outdamage the Tengu in a Cerb have a skill or fitting issue. Shocked
- The problem with the Tengu is that it so thoroughly obsoletes the entire Caldari lineup: Drake, Cerb, Nighthawk, Raven, CNR*, and Golem*. It is eminently reasonable and cost effective to get a 1K DPS HAM Tengu - and that discounts the much more common HML fits.
- You say that the Cerb trades "some little DPS", but how much is that DPS? From everything I see, its close to 50%... that's not "a little".
- There's a lot of talk about HML being OP. I don't care too much, but I think people should pay more attention to how easy it is to almost totally mitigate HML DPS. The Tengu (and missile ships in general) do not always apply full DPS, or even close to it. Just because the missiles hit doesn't mean that they don't have damage application issues ("tracking issues").
- The SP investment involved with making anything else in the Caldari lineup get even remotely close to the Tengu is ... well, a huge hurdle to cross. Cruise/Torps 5, Spec 4, BS5, etc. The guy talking about 45 days may or may not be right in his argument, but he's certainly right in the spirit of it.
- You keep harping about 100mn ABs like that's what makes the Tengu "all that". It really isn't. The 100mn AB Tengu is a strong ship, but its very catchable and very killable. It should not surprise anyone that a dual gang boosted pirate implanted deadspace fit Tengu is hard to kill solo - especially if you aren't prepared to pin something like that down. There are ships that can "solo kill" a 100mn Tengu, provided they have similar pimpage and boosters.

* In PVE its not as much as it might sound like, but those ships require WAY more SP. In PVP, its trivially true.

-Liang

PS: I have 3 Tengu pilots and a bunch of Tengus. Its not like I hate the ship.

Ed: BTW, the Legion could use some Love and the Tengu could use some toning down. Not a lot though, and hopefully not before the Cerb and Nighthawk get their respective issues fixed.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#43 - 2012-04-16 23:10:18 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.

-Liang


I'm just brain storming. Do you have any ideas?


Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-04-16 23:19:36 UTC
TBH, most of the "OMG IT'S OP!!!" issues with the tengu are due to shield extenders, shield boosters and shield RR having much much less PG fitting requirements to the armour counterparts.
Still, I hardly think it's broken.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-04-16 23:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.

T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank.
Other T3's are in need of a big take-a-look-at so they become as effective as Tengu and then we will not listen whatever about it any more, everyone will be able to shoot between 45 and 113km short and long range, speed tank and kick ass dozens forum thread pages Lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2012-04-16 23:42:48 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.

T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank.


Your logic doesn't hold water. Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Matrix Operator
#47 - 2012-04-16 23:47:02 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)

-Liang


Good points, but those weren't really ideas. Just observations. Got any ideas in the sense of specific solutions?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-04-16 23:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.

T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank.


Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive".

-Liang



We're not talking about a specific fit Tengu, everyone talk about (all) Tengu being OP, I'm clarifying correctly that only a few setups are above what we could consider as "normal".

As for the standard of fitting, once again I don't agree with you because standard means T2 and once again you just can't talk about standard to set the base of discussion then add faction and dead space mods to validate your point of view because it just doesn't stick right.

Now I can tell you, on the other hand, that a faction/officer fitted Cynabal is far overpowered than Tengu. No one seems to fly those a lot or complain about Blink
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#49 - 2012-04-17 00:06:55 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets.


There.

All fixed up for ya, bru.


the good thing is this won't happen. even when you change quotes from others

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#50 - 2012-04-17 00:21:05 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Yes, see my last post. Or are you asking for ways to counter 3B ISK Tengus? Because yes, I do in fact have ideas for that. :)

-Liang


Good points, but those weren't really ideas. Just observations. Got any ideas in the sense of specific solutions?


I'd say nothing should really happen before the Cerb, Nighthawk, Eagle, and certain other HAC/CSs are adjusted (upwards). From there, I think it'll be more obvious what needs to happen. If I had to guess, the answer would be lowering fittings a bit and maybe switching the ROF bonus for a slightly weaker omni damage bonus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-04-17 00:27:30 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

We're not talking about a specific fit Tengu, everyone talk about (all) Tengu being OP, I'm clarifying correctly that only a few setups are above what we could consider as "normal".


The standard Tengu fits (expensive or not) are quite powerful by any standard. And no, I don't consider the 3B ISK 100mn AB fits to be a standard fit. Most of them are much cheaper and those can be solo killed pretty easily.

Quote:

As for the standard of fitting, once again I don't agree with you because standard means T2 and once again you just can't talk about standard to set the base of discussion then add faction and dead space mods to validate your point of view because it just doesn't stick right.


Standard fits are based around how and where they're actually used. Its unreasonable to talk about deadspace fit Hurricanes, but its very reasonable to talk about deadspace fitted Machs and Bhaals. Ships as expensive as the Tengu are commonly faction fit - so I think you're doing a disservice if you avoid talking about them that way.

Notably, when someone makes a claim about a 3B ISK double gang boosted Tengu being OP, its perfectly legit to bring up other ships with 3B ISK and double gang boosts as viable counters - at least in a PVP setting.

Quote:

Now I can tell you, on the other hand, that a faction/officer fitted Cynabal is far overpowered than Tengu. No one seems to fly those a lot or complain about Blink


Its true, the Cynabal is pretty ridiculous. I have to admit that the Vigilant is the one that catches my eye though. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Teras Lakkos
SuperMassive Torque
#52 - 2012-04-17 01:33:00 UTC
Came in to bask in legion buffing glory

Left disappointed
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#53 - 2012-04-17 01:33:54 UTC
It's a delicate issue. I'm very weary of power creep in MMOs and buffing everything else to match a higher standard is a step towards that direction. So the only reasonable solution seems to be nerfing the outliers. On the otherhand though, Tengu and Projectiles (another thing that many whine about being OP) are working very well, and it would be sad to see very functional ships/ weapon systems get nerfed to stone age.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-04-17 01:43:01 UTC
Teras Lakkos wrote:
Came in to bask in legion buffing glory

Left disappointed


Sorry.Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-04-17 02:13:37 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
It's a delicate issue. I'm very weary of power creep in MMOs and buffing everything else to match a higher standard is a step towards that direction. So the only reasonable solution seems to be nerfing the outliers. On the otherhand though, Tengu and Projectiles (another thing that many whine about being OP) are working very well, and it would be sad to see very functional ships/ weapon systems get nerfed to stone age.



While Tengu specific fits become clearly annoying to other players game experience because of some bad game mechanics, projectiles are just OP without any sort of gimp because it's the guns mechanics and ammo themselves that are the problem

I'll try to enumerate a few points why Tengu becomes annoying thx to bad game mechanics:

-100MN AB- PG requirements aren't the problem but the mod it self fitting size limitations, indeed if you try to fit a blaster or rails Tengu you figure out it lacks of PG
Also, if you can't fit more than a 10MN AB suddenly the top speed goes down by a large margin. The issue is not the ship but mods

-Dead space shield mods having ridiculous light fitting requirements and ridiculous overpowered repair amount. A single large a-type SB coupled with a cap injector and the result is an almost unbreakable tank until you are out of cap charges

-Faction launchers+ ammo:
Launchers bring a very high rate of fire, don't need you to have specialisation skill
Faction ammo is ridiculous, lower explosion radius than T2, higher velocity = +distance (coupled with ROF you have about the same DPS but lower fittings)

These are from my point of view the points that give Tengu the myth of "OP ship" when it's clearly a specific set up requiring huge amounts of isk for mods using stupid mechanics (lack of requirements/specialisation) and bonus (dead space shield mods are completely overpowered)
Take these advantages away or rework them properly like missiles time flight and faction launchers ROF, size restriction fittings and shield/armor dead space balance. All the sudden Tengu will not look OP any more.
Kenshin Tzestu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-04-17 02:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshin Tzestu
Here is to hoping that CCP fixes the legion (covert ops subsystem especially). Every other offensive subsystem is bonused to a weapon system, the legion gives a crappy cap use malus that serves no purpose for a covert ops ship who wants to have a short fight anyhow (and is pretty much always cap boosted).
Maxine Bellorum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-04-17 04:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxine Bellorum
For those of you that think that missiles are awesome, I'd like to have some of what you are smoking. As for the tengu, leave it the **** alone and where are you guys getting info that the proteus and legion are bad?

I can tell you that the legion's performance in pve matches that of a tengu and they both have their niches. Legion to incursions and tengu to whs. In pvp, HAM legion owns HAM tengu everyday, thanks in part to slaves and other distinguishing qualities. The legion with lazors is no slouch either when it comes down to mid range engagement and clearly has an immense advantage over the tengu when dealing with smaller targets (so don't give me that missiles always hit crap ).

The proteus on the other hand is a close range brawler. I know obvious stuff is obvious and it has its own niche. No t3 spews as much dps as this thing whilst sustaining an insane tank. Cloaky fits are very viable and still easily out tank the best buffer tengu fits you can find out there. It clearly isn't as good as the legion and tengu when it comes down to pve but I don't see a tengu beating a proteus at what it does best unless you are out played which is very possible.

The changes I'd be expecting to T3s are subsystem based and hopefully it'll shine light on some t3 subs that are fairly used atm. I'm also in full support of T3s performing significantly better than some T2s. No one is paying more isk for variety crap.

Tanya Powers wrote:
Pookoko wrote:
It's a delicate issue. I'm very weary of power creep in MMOs and buffing everything else to match a higher standard is a step towards that direction. So the only reasonable solution seems to be nerfing the outliers. On the otherhand though, Tengu and Projectiles (another thing that many whine about being OP) are working very well, and it would be sad to see very functional ships/ weapon systems get nerfed to stone age.



While Tengu specific fits become clearly annoying to other players game experience because of some bad game mechanics, projectiles are just OP without any sort of gimp because it's the guns mechanics and ammo themselves that are the problem

I'll try to enumerate a few points why Tengu becomes annoying thx to bad game mechanics:

-100MN AB- PG requirements aren't the problem but the mod it self fitting size limitations, indeed if you try to fit a blaster or rails Tengu you figure out it lacks of PG
Also, if you can't fit more than a 10MN AB suddenly the top speed goes down by a large margin. The issue is not the ship but mods

-Dead space shield mods having ridiculous light fitting requirements and ridiculous overpowered repair amount. A single large a-type SB coupled with a cap injector and the result is an almost unbreakable tank until you are out of cap charges

You are kinda clueless so let me help you. 100mn ab legions exist and they are as badass as the tengu ones with a **** ton of buffer but reasonably slower.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2012-04-17 04:50:30 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

While Tengu specific fits become clearly annoying to other players game experience because of some bad game mechanics, projectiles are just OP without any sort of gimp because it's the guns mechanics and ammo themselves that are the problem

I'll try to enumerate a few points why Tengu becomes annoying thx to bad game mechanics:

-100MN AB- PG requirements aren't the problem but the mod it self fitting size limitations, indeed if you try to fit a blaster or rails Tengu you figure out it lacks of PG
Also, if you can't fit more than a 10MN AB suddenly the top speed goes down by a large margin. The issue is not the ship but mods

-Dead space shield mods having ridiculous light fitting requirements and ridiculous overpowered repair amount. A single large a-type SB coupled with a cap injector and the result is an almost unbreakable tank until you are out of cap charges

-Faction launchers+ ammo:
Launchers bring a very high rate of fire, don't need you to have specialisation skill
Faction ammo is ridiculous, lower explosion radius than T2, higher velocity = +distance (coupled with ROF you have about the same DPS but lower fittings)

These are from my point of view the points that give Tengu the myth of "OP ship" when it's clearly a specific set up requiring huge amounts of isk for mods using stupid mechanics (lack of requirements/specialisation) and bonus (dead space shield mods are completely overpowered)
Take these advantages away or rework them properly like missiles time flight and faction launchers ROF, size restriction fittings and shield/armor dead space balance. All the sudden Tengu will not look OP any more.


Comments:
- I'd say anyone flying a Tengu with faction launchers is a scrub. T2 launchers give you the flexibility for Fury, which is important and outdamages anything faction launchers can do. Furthermore, they're significantly cheaper.
- There's nothing wrong with oversized AB fits. The advantage is a bit better cap and that you can't be scrammed. The disadvantage is that you turn and accelerate like a super tanker and sacrifice a huge portion of your fittings space. Its cool that there's some variety in speed mods available, because "standard" AB fits just flat suck for all purposes (even PVE these days). I honestly don't see anything wrong here.
- Deadspace shield mods are cool, but similar pimpage on the ship that's being shot means the Tengu will NEVER break its tank. There's nothing wrong with this mechanic.

At any rate, the biggest thing that makes the Tengu look OP is the fact its a 3B ISK dual gang boosted nano ship. "I didn't get to solo kill it with my T2 fit Hurricane when he brought a massively pimped hard counter to my ship!" QQ, QQ, QQ. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#59 - 2012-04-17 09:01:22 UTC
1. Covop system: +5% dmg per lvl

2. Liquid Crystal Magnifiers/Assault Optimisation: +drones - 25m3 band and 50m3 bay.

All what is needed for happyness. Oh, and Wake Limiter doesn't work.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#60 - 2012-04-17 14:29:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Isk is not a balance factor witch invalidates directly 3Billion isk 1K dps 5km/s fits.

T2 fitted Tengu is not overpowered, point blank.


Your logic doesn't hold water. Just because "ISK isn't a factor" doesn't mean that the 3B ISK Tengus aren't OP. Furthermore, faction damage mods and T2 rigs are the standard of the day in PVE ships - there's literally nothing exciting or interesting or unexpected about it. Stop denying it just because its "expensive".

-Liang

spending 3 bil or more on dead space and officer mods and implants will give any ship in game a massive boost. The right combination of officer and dead space mods and implants can nearly double to DPS of almost any ship compared to fitting it with straight T2 mods.

For example it was possible to fit a dramel with the right faction/ded/officer mods combined with slave implants to get a top speed over 20km/s. You can still get it well over 10km/s. There is a video on you tube not only showing it going that fast but how to fit it as well. When the isk faucet is opened any ship can become overpowered compared to its T2 fit counterpart. And why shouldn't a ship worth several billion isk not be significantly more powerful than the same ship with a cheap T2 fit.