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Is the Legion getting any love for Inferno?

Author
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#61 - 2012-04-17 15:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Well, according to the ccp ship balancing slides at fanfest, they think the tengu is fine, and the other t3's (including the legion) are slightly to severely out of whack Cool. Also in the same slides, the cerb is considered completely broken.
Source:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1067557
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#62 - 2012-04-17 15:39:15 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
And why shouldn't a ship worth several billion isk not be significantly more powerful than the same ship with a cheap T2 fit.


I didn't say it shouldn't be - I said that you should discuss ships with the kinds of fits they normally bear. Nobody realistically talks about Supercarriers and Titans with T2 mods, and similarly we shouldn't be talking about Tengus with T2 either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Daphny Naarma
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-04-17 16:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daphny Naarma
Large Collidable Object wrote:

... If Tengus make up 60% of the entire T3 population (according to CCP), there's something wrong.

...

Years ago, new pilots rushed for their races BSs to make some money - now they all rush for the Tengu.

These are in fact the really relevant arguments. The debate "it's OP!" -> "No it's NOT, because ..." -> "YES it is, because ..." is rather irrelevant. Those are all arguments which supposedly would explain a higher/lower use of the ship, but as we already HAVE the use - black on white, the arguments are more or less for naught.

It's lika catching a theif red handed and having two parts arguing whether he'd ever steal or not. That debate is void - he was caught stealing. Spouting arguments on why that person would never steal are irrelevant.

The tengu is the thief here. It doesn't matter how much some swear on it not being 'all that, really' - it is clear by sheer numbers, people's training queues etc etc just how good (or bad) it is. There is no need to try to convince anyone the thief would never steal - the thief is already caught stealing. His stealing will be as undone because people swearing he'd never do it as the Tengu would stop being ridiculously overrepresented in the statistics because people continously spout how 'actually not that good' it is.

tl;dr
Arguing how good/bad the Tengu REALLY is, won't change the fact on how crazily overrepresented it is, making the arguing itself kind of useless.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-04-17 16:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Daphny Naarma wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

... If Tengus make up 60% of the entire T3 population (according to CCP), there's something wrong.

...

Years ago, new pilots rushed for their races BSs to make some money - now they all rush for the Tengu.

These are in fact the really relevant arguments. The debate "it's OP!" -> "No it's NOT, because ..." -> "YES it is, because ..." is rather irrelevant. Those are all arguments which supposedly would explain a higher/lower use of the ship, but as we already HAVE the use - black on white, the arguments are more or less for naught.

It's lika catching a theif red handed and having two parts arguing whether he'd ever steal or not. That debate is void - he was caught stealing. Spouting arguments on why that person would never steal are irrelevant.

The tengu is the thief here. It doesn't matter how much some swear on it not being 'all that, really' - it is clear by sheer numbers, people's training queues etc etc just how good (or bad) it is. There is no need to try to convince anyone the thief would never steal - the thief is already caught stealing. His stealing will be as undone because people swearing he'd never do it as the Tengu would stop being ridiculously overrepresented in the statistics because people continously spout how 'actually not that good' it is.

tl;dr
Arguing how good/bad the Tengu REALLY is, won't change the fact on how crazily overrepresented it is, making the arguing itself kind of useless.



You too fail to understand Tengu is not OverPowered but all other T3's that are rather meh or bad at what they should do.

Bring whatever argument, RL whatsoever does'nt really matter. Explain me why Tengu with only mods for it's ship size, T2 mods and ammo drasticly drops in stats and becomes another T3.

You just don't want to discuss about Oversized mods, Deadspace mods in need of a real nerf hammer and T2 mods in need of a larger buf because when meta4 is good or superior than T2 requiring much training, there's a balance problem.

It's so much easy to simpl say Tengu is overpowered and avoid discussion about what's really bad and should get a close take-a-look.
The problem about some players avoiding this is just because at some point you're touching their tralala advantage over noobs and call that "skill".
Well, in what I'm concerned being abl to buy a 1.5B 100mn AB to boost my tengu doesn't means I'm super skilled and just because I can doesn't mean my setup IS the base setup from now on. Base setup for no matter the ship must/should always be T2 mods nothing else, point blank.
Daphny Naarma
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-04-17 17:24:34 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
...
You too fail to understand Tengu is not OverPowered but all other T3's that are rather meh or bad at what they should do.
...

I never said anything about it being overpowered/underpowered/whatever and haven't failed to understand anything. I agree with you and I'm on 'your' side so relax a bit.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-04-17 19:07:56 UTC
I regards to the OP’s subject I do hope CCP look at subsystem usage and buff some of the more underused subsystems, even the tengu has some poor subsystems.

As for the tengu it could perhaps do with a few tweaks not sure how but perhaps in regards to being able to fit a cap subsystem and have six launchers.

In regards to the cerb-tengu argument it is a case of one being very good for its class and another quite poor, the cerb needs buffing even if it is just more powergrid (a lot more) and CPU.

For me given the cost and expected performance I do not like the idea of balancing them strictly against HAC’s, which I see as a more day to day PVP vessel. They definitely need balancing against command ships which I kind of feel they have more in common with.
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#67 - 2012-04-18 03:44:52 UTC
It needs seven goddamn turrets in gun configuration, 125m3 bandwidth in drone configuration, and a range + effect bonus for neuts in neut configuration. The assault missile config is the only one close to being useful, could still use more damage.

The Legion is presently crap and anyone saying it's fine should be ashamed of themselves for being so wrong.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#68 - 2012-04-18 04:10:59 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Legion is the absolute #1 money maker in hisec right now hands down.

All these bitching about incursion threads are one thing, but when you add to it a "Buff legion" thread, it really shows how apathetic this community can be.



Isn't that more of a consequence of how Vanguard NCOs have been made, rather than good of the Legion itself. NCOs are basically NPC frigate hoards. If CCP decided to introduce a BS or two into the NCO mix then the Legion productivity drops like a stone.

Doesn't say anything about the status of the Legion when compared to the other T3s.


The fact that it can make more money sure as hell does, that's the prime consideration in PvE. Its how most ppl rate a PvE ship.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

YuuKnow
The Scope
#69 - 2012-04-18 14:33:28 UTC
Just some thoughts

I don't fly a tengu, but from what I read its a unquie ability for a T3 cruiser to hit at BattleShip Sniper ranges. That's something that no other T3 cuiser can do. If that's the main gist of the problem, then perhaps a decrease in the effective range of the Tengu is all that is needed for "balance". Or an increase in the range of the other T3 cruisers.

Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#70 - 2012-04-19 03:37:29 UTC
It says Legion in the title but word "Tengu" appears far more frequently :D

On a serious notes anyone who complains or says that Legion is gimped should make a list of what they think is bad about it.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#71 - 2012-04-19 05:34:21 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
It says Legion in the title but word "Tengu" appears far more frequently :D

On a serious notes anyone who complains or says that Legion is gimped should make a list of what they think is bad about it.


Well I ll try to answer withou using the forbidden word. What they think is bad about the Legion:

1) It's not ten times better than a Pilgrim cloaky.
2) It's not able to do 1k+ dps with pulse at 40km
3) It's not better than Paladin, Absolution, Navy Poc and Geddon for lvl4s
4) It has a hard time soloing lvl5s
5) It does not have a configuration obsoleting the.... Cynabal and Vagabond :D*

* That is all a load of pants of course all tier3s are fine and one needs a minisule whack with the nerf-slipper...
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-04-19 07:38:20 UTC
Maxine Bellorum wrote:
For those of you that think that missiles are awesome, I'd like to have some of what you are smoking. As for the tengu, leave it the **** alone and where are you guys getting info that the proteus and legion are bad?

I can tell you that the legion's performance in pve matches that of a tengu and they both have their niches. Legion to incursions and tengu to whs. In pvp, HAM legion owns HAM tengu everyday, thanks in part to slaves and other distinguishing qualities. The legion with lazors is no slouch either when it comes down to mid range engagement and clearly has an immense advantage over the tengu when dealing with smaller targets (so don't give me that missiles always hit crap ).

The proteus on the other hand is a close range brawler. I know obvious stuff is obvious and it has its own niche. No t3 spews as much dps as this thing whilst sustaining an insane tank. Cloaky fits are very viable and still easily out tank the best buffer tengu fits you can find out there. It clearly isn't as good as the legion and tengu when it comes down to pve but I don't see a tengu beating a proteus at what it does best unless you are out played which is very possible.

The changes I'd be expecting to T3s are subsystem based and hopefully it'll shine light on some t3 subs that are fairly used atm. I'm also in full support of T3s performing significantly better than some T2s. No one is paying more isk for variety crap.


TL:DR, lazer legion needs a buff to dps, but not a huge one.


you have no clue do you? faction heavy missiles do a ton of damage to frigs etc.


however, after playing around in eft(yeah i know, its eft >.>) and the test server(rage please) i've found that the lazer legion is too weak. i've flown a proteus a few mirrors before, and would choose the proteus over lazer legion(because missile legion is just wrong) any day. a "good" proteus fit can get 1.1k dps and 180k EHP(no faction). while i can get a legion with 210k ehp and only 600 dps(again no faction(and yes, my fits are quite possibly absolute fail(and i use best implants etc.))) the legion with conflag can hit to around 20km with the 600 dps,and to 35km with 430 dps, while a proteus can hit out to around 25km(with some luck) with 840 dps and null.

altho the legion isn't to bad, it could certainly use a lazer buff


-lets keep this thread going
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2012-04-19 09:45:52 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Legion is the absolute #1 money maker in hisec right now hands down.

All these bitching about incursion threads are one thing, but when you add to it a "Buff legion" thread, it really shows how apathetic this community can be.



And how apathetic some people shooting a specific dmg profile rat think Legion is awesome? Lol



Incursion Sansha have uniform resists.

And yes - the Tengu is imbalanced.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tech, which impacts ship performance, and roles. Tech 1 is the reference in ship balancing, while faction ships (navy and pirate variants) are most often plain improvements, tech 2 offer a specialized purpose and tech 3 give opportunities for generalization.


So the Tengu shouldn't outperform the Cerb (lol) whereas it outperforms almost the entire Caldari ship roster above frigs and below caps in their 'specialized roles'.

Of course that's a problem with some others too, like e.g. the Legion being better at being a Sac than the Sac itself etc...



Counterpoint: the Cerb badly need a buff. It's not a good yardstick to use.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gnidex
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-04-19 10:30:38 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
1. Covop system: +5% dmg per lvl

2. Liquid Crystal Magnifiers/Assault Optimisation: +drones - 25m3 band and 50m3 bay.

All what is needed for happyness. Oh, and Wake Limiter doesn't work.


This would actually be an excellent start.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#75 - 2012-04-20 15:48:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Counterpoint: the Cerb badly need a buff. It's not a good yardstick to use.


Given that HACs are T2 and T2 are supposedly more specialized and better at 'what they do' than a comparable T3, perhaps what needs to be done is to lower the resist of T3s to make HACs the better tank, or increase the baseline resist of a HAC. A HAC should have the best cruiser tank right?

yk
Ivory Kantenu
Apotheosis.
#76 - 2012-04-20 23:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivory Kantenu
Gnidex wrote:
Kaikka Carel wrote:
1. Covop system: +5% dmg per lvl

2. Liquid Crystal Magnifiers/Assault Optimisation: +drones - 25m3 band and 50m3 bay.

All what is needed for happyness. Oh, and Wake Limiter doesn't work.


This would actually be an excellent start.


It would be, for sure.

Deleting my old post. Nonsense rambling.

[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]

Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-04-21 00:24:01 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Haven't seen any specific mention of this in the Dev blogs, but I was wondering if anyone has seen any mention of the Legion getting any love for Inferno.

Its such a gimped ship that it pales in comparison with the other T3 hulls for any of the same task. Sad


There have been mentions of non tengu T3s getting some love. No time frame. Check out the ship balance lecture from fanfest on youtube.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.