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Is the Legion getting any love for Inferno?

Author
Lyrrashae
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-04-16 19:24:46 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets.


There.

All fixed up for ya, bru.

Ni.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#22 - 2012-04-16 19:29:49 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Legion is the absolute #1 money maker in hisec right now hands down.

All these bitching about incursion threads are one thing, but when you add to it a "Buff legion" thread, it really shows how apathetic this community can be.



And how apathetic some people shooting a specific dmg profile rat think Legion is awesome? Lol



Incursion Sansha have uniform resists.

And yes - the Tengu is imbalanced.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tech, which impacts ship performance, and roles. Tech 1 is the reference in ship balancing, while faction ships (navy and pirate variants) are most often plain improvements, tech 2 offer a specialized purpose and tech 3 give opportunities for generalization.


So the Tengu shouldn't outperform the Cerb (lol) whereas it outperforms almost the entire Caldari ship roster above frigs and below caps in their 'specialized roles'.

Of course that's a problem with some others too, like e.g. the Legion being better at being a Sac than the Sac itself etc...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-04-16 19:39:21 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
So the Tengu shouldn't outperform the Cerb (lol) whereas it outperforms almost the entire Caldari ship roster above frigs and below caps in their 'specialized roles'.


If you can't dps more with a Cerberus witch role is to bring heavy dps I can only see a lack of skills, bad fitting or not enough fitting on it to do better than Tengu.

Do you fit 500M tank Items in your Cerberus?
Do you fit faction launchers?

Quote:
Of course that's a problem with some others too, like e.g. the Legion being better at being a Sac than the Sac itself etc...


I do agree with you on this one but I actually think the problem it's not T3's being too good but Assault ships being terribly bad designed. Seems most if not all are from another age, like if they were still in beta form while the game just took 10 years in the mouth.
Then add obscure and incomprehensible formulas for mechanics that are obviously not working and never did properly (latest example is concord boomerang) plus those awesome bugs brought with the patch to patch the previous bug already patching another previous bug...

Thing is that you can't say assault ships are fine and they don't need a full revamp because then I'll think about the pathetic Deimos that still can't fit meta 250" or faction ones and have a decent tank/mobility.

Why do you really want to nerf something working properly?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#24 - 2012-04-16 19:52:31 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

If you can't dps more with a Cerberus witch role is to bring heavy dps I can only see a lack of skills, bad fitting or not enough fitting on it to do better than Tengu.


Please show me a 1000 DPS Cerberus. Feel free to use HAM with Rage and 6% hardwirings.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-04-16 20:16:25 UTC
Will not even waste time on trying because if an officer dead space fit Tengu seems normal a Cerberus on the other hand would look "lol fit". You are EFT warrior enough to know exactly what I meant but you want to play with words, so go ahead I'm done with words games.

I do care on the other hand that my T2 fitted Cerberus does more dps than my T2 fitted Tengu: op success

My Proteus can go above 1k dps but not my Deimos, so is my Proteus also in need of nerf bat?

My Loki does better dps than my vaga, so also needs the nerfbat, right?

Now I'd really like to see that T2 1K Tengu dps fit.

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#26 - 2012-04-16 20:23:28 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets.


There.

All fixed up for ya, bru.

^^ THIS.
Tech 3 cruisers are supposed to be the masters of versatility. They should be able to perform any role just by rearranging subsystems. The Tengu can do this well. As Lyrrashae said the others need to be "adjusted to match the standard it sets".

The tengu may be slightly overpowered DPS wise but that will get fixed when they rebalance missiles. The problem is missiles never miss the target, and deffender missiles don't work. HAM and HM are the right size to hit everything, since they do not miss anything within range, they make any cruiser class ship with good missile bonuses a great DPS boat for its size.

Look at the other HAM and HM boats in the Caldari fleet. They also seem very over powered compared to their equals from other races. The Drake is the best BC, what weapon systems does it use? A navy Osprey or Caracal Can fly though Level 3 missions crazy fast. I used to run Level 3 missions in a standard Caracal with no problems. How many other standard cruisers can easily run level 3 missions?
Katalci
Spectral Yokai
#27 - 2012-04-16 20:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Tanya Powers wrote:
If there's some problem with T3's it's not Tengu, except maybe CCP fail to fix ship size modules (100mn AB) but let me get your attention to this simple fact: all T3's can use 100MN AB's.

The Proteus can't effectively use oversized ABs because it doesn't have the fuel catalyst subsystem.

Lyrrashae wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets.


There.

All fixed up for ya, bru.

Also this
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#28 - 2012-04-16 20:35:13 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

If you can't dps more with a Cerberus witch role is to bring heavy dps I can only see a lack of skills, bad fitting or not enough fitting on it to do better than Tengu.

Do you fit 500M tank Items in your Cerberus?
Do you fit faction launchers?


Even with faction/T2+rage and all lows full of officer BCUs you wont even get close to a Tengu - as for skills - well - the only thing I'd lack to fly it at all V would be Heavy Missile/HAM Spec to V - but ok - the Cerbs range is a little better.


Quote:

I do agree with you on this one but I actually think the problem it's not T3's being too good but Assault ships being terribly bad designed. Seems most if not all are from another age, like if they were still in beta form while the game just took 10 years in the mouth.

Thing is that you can't say assault ships are fine and they don't need a full revamp because then I'll think about the pathetic Deimos that still can't fit meta 250" or faction ones and have a decent tank/mobility.

Why do you really want to nerf something working properly?


Yeah - HACs need some love - however everyone flying a ship above anything else is not a sign of something working properly, it's a sign of something being overpowered, too easily accessible etc... If Tengus make up 60% of the entire T3 population (according to CCP), there's something wrong.

The Tengu not only outclasses its supposedly 'more specialized' T2 Cruiser counterparts (not sure about the Falcon - never flew one as that is against my e-honoure), it also vastly outshines T2 Battlecruisers (ok - bad example - CS could need some love too), and even T2 Battleships (Tengu pretty much replaced Golems as a carebear vessel which used to be really popular a couple of years ago).

Years ago, new pilots rushed for their races BSs to make some money - now they all rush for the Tengu.


You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-04-16 20:45:36 UTC
wow this thread got derailed quickly...
tbh, tengu is not that great.
what it has in versatility and strengths is more than countered by the fact that apart from the drake, it's probably the most boring ship in eve to fly ;)

as for buffing the other t3s, people who think that proteus and/or loki are not great ships are delusional.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Matrix Operator
#30 - 2012-04-16 21:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Matrix Operator
Perhaps a solution would to give the Legion Assault Optimization Subsystem a Heavy Missile bonus as well, instead of just a Heavy Assault Missile bonus.

Would that balance things at bit?

Or if the other method would be to bring the Tengu down a bit, maybe by decreasing its flight time bonus to 5%, or changing its flight bonus to a Explosion Velocity Bonus.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-04-16 21:12:17 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Yeah - HACs need some love - however everyone flying a ship above anything else is not a sign of something working properly, it's a sign of something being overpowered, too easily accessible etc... If Tengus make up 60% of the entire T3 population (according to CCP), there's something wrong.

The Tengu not only outclasses its supposedly 'more specialized' T2 Cruiser counterparts (not sure about the Falcon - never flew one as that is against my e-honoure), it also vastly outshines T2 Battlecruisers (ok - bad example - CS could need some love too), and even T2 Battleships (Tengu pretty much replaced Golems as a carebear vessel which used to be really popular a couple of years ago).

Years ago, new pilots rushed for their races BSs to make some money - now they all rush for the Tengu.


This is the main reason why I can't agree with people stating Tengu is overpowered, just because there's not a single valid reference to confirm it. We know all other T3's are in need of buffs, but it's so much easy to say Tengu is overpowered rather than point out to CCP what they are doing wrong that makes SOME setups be ridiculously effective.

Assault ships that should be the dps reference for T3's are such a joke, unbalanced, ridiculous to fly/fit and that is a fact. Sure some are less than others and some we could almost say they're good.
As long as assault ships are the joke they are and completely unbalanced to each other no one on it's right mind and objectively can say Tengu is overpowered because of so many factors exterior to the ship it self, just like HAM's or HM being ridiculous ammo and mechanics behind those.

Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered?
For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.

I can continue but I'm very sure you understand right now my point of view what's wrong with Tengu and what it can make it look like an overpowered tool needing all skills level 5 (including specs) to get the quintessence from it.

Now I'm still waiting to see someone post 1k dps and 5k/s T2 Tengu fit using med size mods and I guess I'll wait for a long time because it's just impossible.
What some players fail to understand is that many mechanics in eve are from primordial age, are full of exploitable bugs some smart players use to their benefit and without a clean base we can't just spit "this" is op and "that" is not.
We can only talk about roles and what we could expect from those, once again Tiers system head shots latin.


Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#32 - 2012-04-16 21:19:16 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Will not even waste time on trying because if an officer dead space fit Tengu seems normal a Cerberus on the other hand would look "lol fit". You are EFT warrior enough to know exactly what I meant but you want to play with words, so go ahead I'm done with words games.

I do care on the other hand that my T2 fitted Cerberus does more dps than my T2 fitted Tengu: op success

My Proteus can go above 1k dps but not my Deimos, so is my Proteus also in need of nerf bat?

My Loki does better dps than my vaga, so also needs the nerfbat, right?

Now I'd really like to see that T2 1K Tengu dps fit.



Getting that kind of DPS out of a Tengu isn't that hard, and for a long time it was considered the "standard" mission Tengu fit. It obviously isn't officer fit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-04-16 21:39:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Will not even waste time on trying because if an officer dead space fit Tengu seems normal a Cerberus on the other hand would look "lol fit". You are EFT warrior enough to know exactly what I meant but you want to play with words, so go ahead I'm done with words games.

I do care on the other hand that my T2 fitted Cerberus does more dps than my T2 fitted Tengu: op success

My Proteus can go above 1k dps but not my Deimos, so is my Proteus also in need of nerf bat?

My Loki does better dps than my vaga, so also needs the nerfbat, right?

Now I'd really like to see that T2 1K Tengu dps fit.



Getting that kind of DPS out of a Tengu isn't that hard, and for a long time it was considered the "standard" mission Tengu fit. It obviously isn't officer fit.

-Liang


Well I consider my self not having "bad" skills at all for Tengu since I maxed those from the beginning with one of my toons so I can surely state that it's just impossible to get 1K dps from a T2 Tengu fit.

What I can get out of it with a T2 fit and sacrificing some isk for a better tank, is an 850+/- dps from 0 to 113km (lacking lvl5 in spec HM), using rof, dmg and speed implants (+5) and a very specific fit needing a good bunch of lvl5 skills, even a single one of fitting skills at 4 and it's just impossible.

The regular guy starting his Tengu after the 45D myth is just spiting 450+/- dps, it's almost impossible to fit or with a lot of isk in faction/dead space modules and no matter the battleship will chew lvl4's faster than this Tengu guy.

Once again, the ship is not overpowered. It's a combination of exploited fail mechanics, one of the best weapon systems in the game and a very wise ship design with a regular subs combination.

If I could hit at 113km with my rails to full dmg, never miss wile Ab'n with my pimp dead space/officer 100AB at over 3.5km I'm very sure everyone would also ask "NERF PROTEUS SILLY CCP", same for other weapon systems.

So, if I put a T2 Tengu fit close to a Cerberus T2 fit with same skills I'll be trading some little dps difference (not important from my point of view) for a far distance of engagement with my Cerberus, distance being so important for survivability.

I keep thinking that Tengu is not overpowered, CCP must change some game mechanics, adjust some dps formulas, change some ships slots/bonus and subs bonus and EvEn then, a weapon system able to apply full dmg at 0 or full distance will always be unbalanced.



Matrix Operator
#34 - 2012-04-16 21:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Matrix Operator
Tanya Powers wrote:
Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.


This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-04-16 21:45:57 UTC
Katalci wrote:

Lyrrashae wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Tengu is fine. The other T3s should be adjusted to match the standard it sets.


There.

All fixed up for ya, bru.

Also this

Also this
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
Federation Uprising
#36 - 2012-04-16 21:50:55 UTC
I like oversized props, i think it adds a fun element to the game. I'd rather see versatility matched with the other t3s. Personally im fine with how they are seeing as each t3 is extremely good at something.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-04-16 21:54:22 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.


This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s.



That should make sense to everyone.

Just like it should make sense to everyone starting from CCP that not matter the mechanics/formulas for weapons/ammo, at the end of a time limit all weapon systems should get the same result.

Why am I able to do full dmg at 113km with my heavy missiles and I can barely scratch an elephants ass at 70+with my 250's ?
Why put defaults in a ship when it's clearly other mechanics that are failing?

Then you have threads and rivers of tears because some silly dudes can't read properly English and think Drake is going to get a nerf bat ... half of those are asking for a Tengu nerf. X

Teras Lakkos
SuperMassive Torque
#38 - 2012-04-16 22:08:06 UTC
BUFF ALL THE LEGIONS.

On a serious note fix my legion please.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#39 - 2012-04-16 22:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Tanya Powers wrote:

This is the main reason why I can't agree with people stating Tengu is overpowered, just because there's not a single valid reference to confirm it. We know all other T3's are in need of buffs, but it's so much easy to say Tengu is overpowered rather than point out to CCP what they are doing wrong that makes SOME setups be ridiculously effective.

Assault ships that should be the dps reference for T3's are such a joke, unbalanced, ridiculous to fly/fit and that is a fact. Sure some are less than others and some we could almost say they're good.
As long as assault ships are the joke they are and completely unbalanced to each other no one on it's right mind and objectively can say Tengu is overpowered because of so many factors exterior to the ship it self, just like HAM's or HM being ridiculous ammo and mechanics behind those.



I agree on heavy missiles and HACs being poorly balanced - especially vs BCs and yes - maybe a HM rework could do the trick.

All T3s need some rebalancing and after HACs have been buffed, T3 subsystems that are plainly unused need to be looked at just as well as subsystems that enable a T3 to fill the same role as a T2 - just better. CCP developed t3s and all the possible uses and fits could impossibly have been foreseen - can't really blame them for that - however I blame them for taking ages to reiterate.
However, they should gear more towards the other T3s considering their overall strength (and that is coming from someone who can fly all T3s maxed except the Tengu).


100 mn AB Tengus could easily be fixed, however I'm actually more concerned with the Tengus PvE capabilities as ridiculous as that may sound.

It drives new pilots down a certain path which is also a bit of a blind alley as for most purposes, there is nothing close to train for after flying a maxed tengu.

So for starting PvP, they'll all fly Drakes because they either flew it at some point or have the necessary skills because they trained them for a Tengu. I wouldn't even consider it as being overpowered - it's more the skill-issue portrayed above coupled with the fact that you could easily train a monkey to fly one in a blob - doesn't even have to be a chimp - a gibbon would do.

Anyway - I'm straying off more than this thread deserves to...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#40 - 2012-04-16 22:41:53 UTC
Matrix Operator wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Being able to fit oversized modules it's not a problem for everyone until some guy fly a 3Billion setup Tengu with 1k dps and 5000m/s -of course with an off grid boost, implants and boosters etc., does this means the ship is overpowered? For me just means CCP failed to do the right thing and limit size modules like they did to rigs, suddenly your 5k/s is not that overpowered.


This is another potential solution as well. Perhaps preventing cruisers from equipping 100MN Abs in addition to the changes I wrote above will be enough to bring things back into balance for T3s.


100mn ABs have literally nothing to do with why the Tengu is so popular. And in PVP, they're not that big of a deal.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.