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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#961 - 2012-04-14 10:15:57 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I say your pal is either a capital pilot or a lier.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eve+online+paladin


A Paladin with 7 Heat Sinks II, TachII with Gleam, a tII Collision Accelerator Rig and 5% Dmg Implants gets 7266 volleys with Gleam. Even the biggest wrecking shots your confused brain seems to imagine don't make that 15k.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#962 - 2012-04-14 10:16:40 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I say your pal is either a capital pilot or a lier.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eve+online+paladin


Paladin, gets just over 7k alpha with officer heatsinks in all of the lows and a t2 damage rig. Lieing to someone who has flown a nightmare for years in not the best of ideas.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#963 - 2012-04-14 10:20:06 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:



This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.

But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?


A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up.


This.

Also, I used tII mining crystals (obviously). Not on the Rokh though (obviously)

For 48 pages you've been spewing the same bullshit, talking about inflated numbers on everything but your precious hulks.
This is not a combat ship. It does not need utility, it was not made for flying around solo. That's like complaining that Logistics get blown up when flown solo into combat.
You either realize that or you will lose it. Again and again and again and nobody can help you because the only one at fault is you.
(And how bloody hard can it be to stay aligned - yes, you can actually switch the celestial you're aligned to once you drift to far away from the asteroids - and watch local/d-scan?)



I dont know who you are directing this to, but I am quoted here as well.

Not once have I given numbers. Not once have I said the counter arguement is wrong. Not once have I disrespected those that have given a valid counter aguement.

Infact if you had read all 48 pages, I somewhat agree with them. I dont care if it's buffed or not. I just believe the hulk is not in a good place for fleet roles.

So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#964 - 2012-04-14 10:21:27 UTC
And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.

It has enough CPU to use better lasers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#965 - 2012-04-14 10:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
malcovas Henderson wrote:



I dont know who you are directing this to, but I am quoted here as well.

Not once have I given numbers. Not once have I said the counter arguement is wrong. Not once have I disrespected those that have given a valid counter aguement.

Infact if you had read all 48 pages, I somewhat agree with them. I dont care if it's buffed or not. I just believe the hulk is not in a good place for fleet roles.

So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.


It wasntBlink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#966 - 2012-04-14 10:24:53 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.

It has enough CPU to use better lasers.


You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it.
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#967 - 2012-04-14 10:30:00 UTC
Quote:
So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.


It wasn't. I just can't be bothered to quote every single instance of bullshit in this thread.

Quote:

And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.

It has enough CPU to use better lasers.


Show me those magical miners you'd put on a rokh. I'm very interested in them.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#968 - 2012-04-14 10:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
baltec1 wrote:
You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it.


I want to see your officer Tornado alpha'ing Rokh with 72k EHP. And that's therm hole by the way.

Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Show me those magical miners you'd put on a rokh. I'm very interested in them.


Could you people start using your own brains...?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evelopedia+modulated+deep+core+miner+II
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#969 - 2012-04-14 10:35:24 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it.


I want to see your officer Tornado alpha'ing Rokh with 72k EHP. And that's therm hole by the way.


41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive. The hulk would tank more.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#970 - 2012-04-14 10:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
baltec1 wrote:
41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive.


And I thought I had crap shield skills...

3x LSE II
1x AIF II
1x EM Ward II
3x CDFE I

72k against therm.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#971 - 2012-04-14 10:41:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
33k is enough


Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage.

17000 x 3 = 51000

If they get two volleys:

51000 x 2 = 102000


They dont hit for 17000, not even a maelstrom can get close to that.


If anyone wanted numbers, I have tried with my Mael, with RF EMP it gets to a max of 11600 damage a volley.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#972 - 2012-04-14 10:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive.


And I thought I had crap shield skills...

3x LSE II
1x AIF II
1x EM Ward II
3x CDFE I

71k against therm.


And it now mines less than a tanked hulk and has a laughable cargo hold..
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#973 - 2012-04-14 10:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
baltec1 wrote:
And it now mines less than a tanked hulk.


More than tank fit Hulk. Ever heard of Mining Laser Upgrades?

Are you sure you have trained your support skills? You should have enough CPU for 8x MDCM, tank and 3x MLU2.
Avila Cracko
#974 - 2012-04-14 10:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
Still the same three guys are afraid of OP paper thin hulk??? Lol
And writing the same old lies and only their "facts" are true? Roll

Hulk is ****, everything was boosted over the years and only industry equipment is same old ****.

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#975 - 2012-04-14 10:55:51 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And it now mines less than a tanked hulk.


More than tank fit Hulk. Ever heard of Mining Laser Upgrades?


Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#976 - 2012-04-14 10:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Avila Cracko wrote:
Still the same three guys are afraid of the current hulk??? Lol
And writing the same old lies and only their "facts" are true? Roll

Hulk is good, everything was boosted over the years and industry equipment is still perfectly fine


Fixed.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#977 - 2012-04-14 11:00:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo.


Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#978 - 2012-04-14 11:02:58 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo.


Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game.


The vast bulk of miners however do mine alone.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#979 - 2012-04-14 11:24:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo.


Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game.


The vast bulk of miners however do mine alone.



Which supports my belief. The hulk is in a bad place within a fleet.


o7
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#980 - 2012-04-14 11:26:38 UTC
Obviously this thread was getting too much attention in GD...

The industrial and industrial-related ships in EVE have always been "weak" of course, The Wreath for example barely has more HP than a rookie ship (99 Shield HP? The Ibis gets about 150 Big smile).
Part of this is that the industrial ships IIRC bypassed at least one of the HP buffs which were designed to prolong combat.

None of this, nor the changed 'landscape' in which the ships have to operate from the destroyer un-nerf or the introduction of the Tier 3 BCs can really be classed as a balance reason for a buff, but they could be classed as contributory factors...

Not just the environment has changed of course. MLUs saw an impressive increase in CPU draw with (deliberately I assume) no commensurate increase in Barge (no exhumers at the time) CPU... I remember scrounging around for a Photonic Co-Processor to try and get one on my Covetor. But the Exhumers made MLUs as ubiquitous as Mag Stabs on a Megathron or BCUs on a Raven. It makes sense to have choices of all upgrade, all tank or something in between reasonably viable - but at the moment the diiference between all upgrade and single upgrade with tank is too small IMHO leading to my CPU increase thoughts below.

For the Hulk specifically:
The Hulk has more slots than the Covetor, it has to fit the same modules but lacks PG to do so (every shield mod needs PG after all.) It does get plenty of CPU of course, sufficient for a shield mod in each extra slot but no PG.
I know that ships are balanced based on 'All Skills @ [5]' but, in general, there is a certain amount of flexibility to allow for slightly lower skills and downgraded meta modules. The MSE Hulk lacks that, because, sub T2, there is no difference in PG need between meta levels on shield mods (particularly the extender which is the largest single draw).
I'd like to see the Hulk's PG boosted, it would make sense to increase it by 3MW, 1MW for each additional mid over the Covetor, but I'd be happy with 1.5MW, and just 1 MW would remove the need for fitting implants for a tank akin to baltec's.

For other Mining Barges/Exhumers:
As anyone who's attempted to fit a Mackinaw knows, many of the ORE ships seem to run on 286s.
The Mackinaw could, with the addition of 50TF of CPU, fit a pretty reasonable 17k EHP tank while still retaining a single harvester upgrade. with only 40TF it could run a DCII tank for about 22k EHP.
The Covetor needs less to get a hulk style tank (and in doing so could encourage the tanking of Hulks) although obviously less hard. 25TF would be about ideal.
The Retriever is in at least as bad a way needing a T2 co-processor just to fit a DC and EM ward amp + rig tank... not enough to stand up to Empire 'rats alone and only offering 7k EHP. The change of the Covetor to Mining Barge [4] in Tiericide perhaps mitigates this but it's currently going to be weeks before a miner can move to a more survivable ship.