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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#741 - 2012-04-13 06:39:39 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The trick is to switch the hulk into the Orca's SMB, stay on grid in your max-tank Basilisks with the salvager fitted so you can laugh at the guys who tried to smart bomb your mining fleet.


And then get popped by Tornado.

Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#742 - 2012-04-13 06:40:27 UTC
Patrick Estemaire wrote:


This. While a noob might mine right in busy systems, to make it easier on a ganker to find them, the wisdom comes quick enough to mine out in the middle of nowhere. I'd certainly think that someone who's flown a mining cruiser, then a Retty, would have figured that lesson out by the time they are buying a Hulk.


Jorma Amatin wrote:
Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.



I am curious about your stance on Mackinaws. They make Hulk sound sturdy yet they HAVE to sit in overcrowded, easy to find belts.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#743 - 2012-04-13 06:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Jorma Morkkis]
The trick is to switch the hulk into the Orca's SMB, stay on grid in your max-tank Basilisks with the salvager fitted so you can laugh at the guys who tried to smart bomb your mining fleet.


An appropriate gank squad goes for the Orca kill, the mining ships around are "AoE bonus damage". Don't ever be overconfident about it. You can indeed bring in logistics, and I daily see multiple RR + repair bots being used. But that affects the ISK per account in a big way.

I.e. if you have the basic 4 Hulks + Orca + 2 RR battleships / logistics you are looking at 4 Hulk income / 6 or / 7. With 2 RR BS you are basically getting as low efficiency as somebody using a tard 32k EHP setup, they also halve their yield but at least don't have to pay for 2-3 additional accounts.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#744 - 2012-04-13 07:46:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD.


I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#745 - 2012-04-13 07:49:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
An appropriate gank squad goes for the Orca kill


There are surprisingly few gankers who bother to survey the ship before ganking it. Of course, none of them post their NPC loss mails.

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#746 - 2012-04-13 07:52:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD.


I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster.


Again, not enough powergrid.

2x T2 links
1x T2 tractor beam
1x T2 100mn MWD
2x T2 PDS
3x T1 ACR

Powergrid: 1802,00/1760,91
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#747 - 2012-04-13 07:56:44 UTC
I would like to point out also.

Comparing industrials to real life industrials, as an arguement with in the game. In real life, the criminal if caught pays a price too.

The problem is. Ganking industrials is on the increase. This is because it's been made to easy to do.

Remove the "must lose ship" from concord mechcanic. Add a bounty on the ganker for each gank. Every time the ganker enters hi sec, he becomes a target for everyone. if caught he loses his account, for a period of time for each gank. When the time expires. He gets his sec status set bk to 5.

Give Ganking a real deterrant.

Im just comparing real life as an arguement within a game


o7
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#748 - 2012-04-13 08:18:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I took the liberty to make your post visible. Thanks again for the most pathetic forums EVER created in the whole universe.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like:

Here it is: Fighting Hulkageddon

The fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum.

However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order.

Here are some important points:
1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!!

2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives.

Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship.

With about 30 percent more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting )
With about 5 percent more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10 percent per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts....

These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival.

Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be....




Also, beware. You will be called hi sec bear for saying this, even with your corp tag Blink


Lol... Everyone in eve is a carebear to some extent... Hell, I've found most of nullsec to be overpopulated with carebears so afraid of their own shadow they can't cope with a single afk cloaker in system, but that's a discussion for another time!!!! I'll let my combat record speak for my PvP prowess...


Tippia wrote:
... lots of complaints about people wanting CCP to make hulks tanky AND yieldy...


Last year, about this time, the Brutix was a status-quo ship for highsec ganking.... With the 16-22 second concord response times, it could output roughly 20k damage. At that time, a tank-fit hulk could easily with stand the assault, and even a fully tanked mackinaw had a marginal chance of survival. Since then, they have buffed blasters and introduced very ganky BC's. All together, these changes very much altered the balance between mining vessels and ganking vessels. Essentially, it is no longer possible to tank a Mackinaw enough to survive a full gank brutix, let alone a tier 3 BC. Even a fully tanked hulk needs heat, squad boosts, and/or implants to marginally survive against these ships. Essentially, the changes have taken away the ability to adequately tank exhumers. You may feel that an exhumer shouldn't be able to tank a tier 3 BC, perhaps because of the insurance nerf.... but I personally disagree. I think a marginal boost to the defense capabilities of these ships to give them a fitting option to tank a single BC is very much in line with this game.
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#749 - 2012-04-13 08:26:38 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
At the end the Hulk is made for 00 or lowsec with intel and a local as pre warning.

What is needed is a high end highsec mining ship which can handle the today playstlye of suizid ganking which was no topic when the Hulk was released! Sure, it did happened back in 200x. But it wasn't that common as it is today.

The Hulk is outdated.


Hulk is 0.0/low sec

Use a osprey or a rokh or similiar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#750 - 2012-04-13 08:41:22 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Last year, about this time, the Brutix was a status-quo ship for highsec ganking.... With the 16-22 second concord response times, it could output roughly 20k damage. At that time, a tank-fit hulk could easily with stand the assault, and even a fully tanked mackinaw had a marginal chance of survival. Since then, they have buffed blasters and introduced very ganky BC's. All together, these changes very much altered the balance between mining vessels and ganking vessels. Essentially, it is no longer possible to tank a Mackinaw enough to survive a full gank brutix, let alone a tier 3 BC. Even a fully tanked hulk needs heat, squad boosts, and/or implants to marginally survive against these ships. Essentially, the changes have taken away the ability to adequately tank exhumers. You may feel that an exhumer shouldn't be able to tank a tier 3 BC, perhaps because of the insurance nerf.... but I personally disagree. I think a marginal boost to the defense capabilities of these ships to give them a fitting option to tank a single BC is very much in line with this game.


The hulk can do just fine solo vs a brutix or T3.
Whitehound
#751 - 2012-04-13 08:47:57 UTC
To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument. Any ship that is badly out of balance will need a fleet to fix it. The question is if we want to have more or less ships depending on the presence of a fleet as well as how strong the dependence needs to be. For example, a command ship still functions as a battleship without a fleet. A logistics ship is of little use without a fleet, but it still has got its survivability. I do not know where super-caps currently stand, but I think they, too, do not necessarily need a fleet to survive.

The mining yield of a mining ship is no direct threat to any combat ship. The ore still needs to be moved around and processed before it turns into a new ship, which means that it is still exposed to combat long after the mining ship has done its job. The ore will also not posses the properties of the mining ships but it requires skill, time and all other game mechanics until it becomes a new ship and can be flown into combat. One could increase the mining yield of all mining ships by a factor of 10 and its effect on combat will still be little. It just does not change anything about the balance of the combat ships. Of course some would make more ISKs after such a change, but only until the markets compensate for it and the prices fall. Anyone would be free to make ISKs in that time through market speculations and as a secondary effect could the popularity of the Hulk drop, which is not a bad thing. However, to argue the mining yield of the mining ships does somehow balance their tank is simply not true.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#752 - 2012-04-13 09:09:35 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument.


Here's what I love about EvE. I sell mining ships, gank ships yet if the mining ships will need a fleet to protect them, my minerals speculation will bring me billions. Win win win Big smile

But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell.

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Ai Shun
#753 - 2012-04-13 09:16:44 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument. Any ship that is badly out of balance will need a fleet to fix it. The question is if we want to have more or less ships depending on the presence of a fleet as well as how strong the dependence needs to be. For example, a command ship still functions as a battleship without a fleet. A logistics ship is of little use without a fleet, but it still has got its survivability. I do not know where super-caps currently stand, but I think they, too, do not necessarily need a fleet to survive.


It does not "need" an escort. But an escort is a way to see a lightly tanked, industrial ship survive. All the other ships you mentioned are purpose built for use in a combat theater. A mining ship is not.

Whitehound wrote:
However, to argue the mining yield of the mining ships does somehow balance their tank is simply not true.


Then why can't you fit Stripminers to a Rohk and mine as effectively with that?
Whitehound
#754 - 2012-04-13 09:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ai Shun wrote:
Then why can't you fit Stripminers to a Rohk and mine as effectively with that?

Do not ask me, ask CCP. I can only guess why. If you could fit 8 strip miners onto a Rohk then it would be the "shot to the head" for all mining ships. You would then only need to carry their corpses out (to remove them from the game).

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#755 - 2012-04-13 09:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell.


I'd say around the same when you take population growth into account. Tornadoes fill the roll of tempests and cost more given that you no longer get insurance. Destroyers now fill the roll the brutix used to fill because gankers have figured out that if you dont tank ships they can be killed for a profit by a destroyer.

Of course, on the 28th this will likely go up and spawn endless Ganking is too easy threads.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#756 - 2012-04-13 09:33:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD.


I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster.


Again, not enough powergrid.

2x T2 links
1x T2 tractor beam
1x T2 100mn MWD
2x T2 PDS
3x T1 ACR

Powergrid: 1802,00/1760,91


No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG.

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#757 - 2012-04-13 09:36:53 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG.


You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things?
Ai Shun
#758 - 2012-04-13 09:44:16 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG.


You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things?


Read the post on the previous page again.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#759 - 2012-04-13 09:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Ai Shun wrote:
Read the post on the previous page again.


Why would anyone have non-tanked travel fit Orca on grid when mining? T3 with mining links off-grid? Lol.
That has to be worst use for Blingu.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#760 - 2012-04-13 10:33:27 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG.


You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things?


Yes, two different things. If you have an off-grid T3 boosting your mining fleet, the Orca is only needed for its hauling capacity and SMB. When you see baddies on D-scan, get the hulks and Orca out of the belt. Yes, we're looking at reducing the meagre income of mining even further, but that's life when you're at the bottom of the food chain. Lots of attention, lots of paranoia, lots of compromise in ship fittings to keep your phenomenal investment in production capital relatively safe, and a bunch of ADHD 13yo PvPers complaining that mining is too boring and needs to be "fixed".

CCP could double the tank on the Hulk. That would just mean that the gankers bring twice as many ships. The major issue with the Hulk is simply that it is prey that must go to watering holes (asteroid belts). The hunters who want to catch the prey know this, and they know that a Hulk in a belt mining ore is going to be terribly limited in its options of fittings, motion, and ability to escape.

Mining could be easily adjusted to not require the prey to be at clearly marked watering holes with signs posted saying, "PLEASE SHOOT ME" but so far CCP has not expressed any interest in doing this (apart from one dev comment some years ago about moving all mining to grav sites). Of course, when it comes to predator-prey relationships, all that will happen is that the gankers simply add exploration alts to their fleets (i.e.: the guy flying the orca full of catalysts and blasters).

Could the Hulk benefit from adjusted fittings such as a slightly more PG? Sure! Will that somehow make you immune to ganking? No. All that such adjustments will achieve is to raise the stakes a little.

Miners just have to remember that they are prey, the herbivores of the EVE Online eco system. Like gazelle in the savanna, miners must remain eternally vigilant and paranoid.

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