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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Adunh Slavy
#661 - 2012-04-12 22:07:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.


So blame the victim entirely, right?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#662 - 2012-04-12 22:10:13 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.


So blame the victim entirely, right?


Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?
Ai Shun
#663 - 2012-04-12 22:11:58 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Because it all comes back to "balance", doesn't it? So where's the balance point? Threads like these show there is some difference of oppinion. Gankbears blame the victim, many others blame game mechanics or the ship it self.


It does. And that is why your argument of having a mining capable barge that can be tanked like a combat vessel while retaining the same mining yield is flawed. It would be unbalanced.

So you choose - you compromise mining in favour of tank, switch to a more combat capable hull,get a buddy to fly escort for you or die in a fire because you are trying to mine in a purposefully built mining vessel without defences in low-sec.
Whitehound
#664 - 2012-04-12 22:16:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:

They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.


Then we must have a lot of drowning men.

This we do.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#665 - 2012-04-12 22:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.

highlighted the important part....

for the ship now to be resilient it has to give up being the "the most efficient mining vessel available."

by the way ccp designed the ship its supposed to have a balanced tank and mining yield but clearly to be efficient at either one it has to give up on the other...

and dont compare it to a combat vessel because its not so saying a deimos has to give up tank to fit gank is mute because a deimos is not a mining ship.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Adunh Slavy
#666 - 2012-04-12 22:17:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?


We can blame the civilian ship building industry. You do recall where you said "It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship"

So why does a civilian industrial ship. as you claim it is, not built for combat, have any ability to tank at all?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#667 - 2012-04-12 22:19:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well.
…except that it tanks just as well as many combat ships and even some T2 cruisers.

Quote:
And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec.
…which still isn't true, even if you keep repeating it.

Quote:
Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind?
You mean ships like the Hulk? People use it to mine in lowsec and even nullsec with some frequency.

Adunh Slavy wrote:
So blame the victim entirely, right?
The people who choose to fit their ships improperly are entirely at fault for fitting their ships improperly, yes.

Quote:
We can blame the civilian ship building industry.
No we can't, because they have no say in the victim's decision to fit his ship improperly.
Adunh Slavy
#668 - 2012-04-12 22:21:46 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
So you choose - you compromise mining in favour of tank, switch to a more combat capable hull,get a buddy to fly escort for you or die in a fire because you are trying to mine in a purposefully built mining vessel without defences in low-sec.


Low sec? For the most part this conversation is about high sec. Low sec is likely safer if you find a backwater system with very light traffic.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#669 - 2012-04-12 22:22:30 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?


We can blame the civilian ship building industry. You do recall where you said "It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship"

So why does a civilian industrial ship. as you claim it is, not built for combat, have any ability to tank at all?


Just because its not a combat vessel doesn't mean they come with no amour plating or the ability to add to its defences. Its not the ships fault a pilot choses not to tank it. It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank.
Whitehound
#670 - 2012-04-12 22:24:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?

Let us not talk about blame. It is CCP's job to look after the balance.

Do you believe it is right when a ship, which costs more than 300m ISKs and is in such a need to have become the most popular ship, should only allow for two options, either to tank or to get ganked?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#671 - 2012-04-12 22:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
Do you believe it is right when a ship, which costs more than 300m ISKs and is in such a need to have become the most popular ship, should only allow for two options, either to tank or to get ganked?
Since that applies to all ships, yes, the Hulk should be no different, and it's price is entirely irrelevant.

So let's talk balance: what is unbalanced about the Hulk?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#672 - 2012-04-12 22:27:09 UTC
The majority of hulk pilots choose to get ganked evidently - who are you to criticize their choice?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#673 - 2012-04-12 22:27:09 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.

highlighted the important part....

for the ship now to be resilient it has to give up being the "the most efficient mining vessel available."

by the way ccp designed the ship its supposed to have a balanced tank and mining yield but clearly to be efficient at either one it has to give up on the other...

and dont compare it to a combat vessel because its not so saying a deimos has to give up tank to fit gank is mute because a deimos is not a mining ship.


Both statements are true about the hulk. It is far more resilient and it is the most efficient mining vessel. Just not at the same time which is as it should be.
Adunh Slavy
#674 - 2012-04-12 22:28:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank.


So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#675 - 2012-04-12 22:31:13 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?

Let us not talk about blame. It is CCP's job to look after the balance.

Do you believe it is right when a ship, which costs more than 300m ISKs and is in such a need to have become the most popular ship, should only allow for two options, either to tank or to get ganked?


Considering it only has one job I would say yes.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#676 - 2012-04-12 22:31:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.

highlighted the important part....

for the ship now to be resilient it has to give up being the "the most efficient mining vessel available."

by the way ccp designed the ship its supposed to have a balanced tank and mining yield but clearly to be efficient at either one it has to give up on the other...

and dont compare it to a combat vessel because its not so saying a deimos has to give up tank to fit gank is mute because a deimos is not a mining ship.


Both statements are true about the hulk. It is far more resilient and it is the most efficient mining vessel. Just not at the same time which is as it should be.


To be more precise, Hulk is the ship that can actually survive some limited 0.0 rats, when fitting deadspace modules.
The other mining ships get popped even by hi sec rats if the pilot has low skills.

I.e. it is the less sh!ttiest ship of the bunch.

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#677 - 2012-04-12 22:31:32 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank.


So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it.

Don't pout.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#678 - 2012-04-12 22:31:41 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it.
Since it's the victim that decided to make his ship weak enough to die to a destroyer, yes. The destroyer has its limits too, you know, and the attacker can only ever push it so far…
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#679 - 2012-04-12 22:31:59 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank.


So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it.


There is nobody else to blame.
Adunh Slavy
#680 - 2012-04-12 22:35:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank.


So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it.


There is nobody else to blame.



Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt