These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

Microwarpdrive + Improved/Prototype cloaking device warp trick.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Holy8th
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#1 - 2012-04-02 22:08:04 UTC
Issues that arise from this:
1. Any ship can warp successfully from small gang fleets without fear of being tackled and/or shot down.
2. Makes any type of fight or tackle on a small gate camp for instance worthless.
3. The only known method for for preventing this is dropping cans/drones on a gate to prevent thus said cloaking, which is considered a exploit.
4. Even a ceptor with full boosts has issues decloaking the target(and tackling it and not getting insta popped by gateguns).

Reasons why it needs to be fixed:
1. ANY ship can move freely in high, lowsec, or nullsec(if no bubbles are present) without hinderance as long as it can fit these two modules.
2. Makes taking territory or laying claim to a area worthless in lowsec, as there is no means of controlling traffic.
3. small gang warfare in lowsec is broken due to this.
4. I sincerly doubt that the devs designed this module to become a free warp pass for any ship.

Possible Fix:
Make the improved or prototype cloaking device unable to activate when a propulsion module is active(lore wise "the cloak cannot be sustained due to its technological limitations"). Although for a covert ops cloak should not be effected by the change as they can warp anyways while cloaked as intended.
L'Acuto
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-04-02 23:01:21 UTC
Wha!

Didn't CCP recently change the cloaking mechanics so that you could fire your prop mod a few seconds after engaging the cloak?
Adunh Slavy
#3 - 2012-04-02 23:31:07 UTC
Get rid of gates, problem solved. Gate camping is boring anyway

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-04-03 00:38:22 UTC
Holy8th wrote:
Issues that arise from this:
1. Any ship can warp successfully from small gang fleets without fear of being tackled and/or shot down.
2. Makes any type of fight or tackle on a small gate camp for instance worthless.
3. The only known method for for preventing this is dropping cans/drones on a gate to prevent thus said cloaking, which is considered a exploit.
4. Even a ceptor with full boosts has issues decloaking the target(and tackling it and not getting insta popped by gateguns).

Reasons why it needs to be fixed:
1. ANY ship can move freely in high, lowsec, or nullsec(if no bubbles are present) without hinderance as long as it can fit these two modules.
2. Makes taking territory or laying claim to a area worthless in lowsec, as there is no means of controlling traffic.
3. small gang warfare in lowsec is broken due to this.
4. I sincerly doubt that the devs designed this module to become a free warp pass for any ship.

Possible Fix:
Make the improved or prototype cloaking device unable to activate when a propulsion module is active(lore wise "the cloak cannot be sustained due to its technological limitations"). Although for a covert ops cloak should not be effected by the change as they can warp anyways while cloaked as intended.

Fun Fact, you CAN catch them, watch your overview and screen, fit soem sensor boosters, most people arent good enough tog et the "insta-holy warp of invulnerability" you describe, adn in fact atke a second or 2 to get up, so use some sebo's and keep an eye out, throw a warp disruptor, target caught.

or better yet, leave your agtecamping in nullsec where you can egt a bubble up, ever think maybe the reason people only travel through your lowsec gatecamp witht this setup is ebcause your INCESSANT gatecamps have made it common to just assume your their? maybe if you actually FOUGHT people who WANTED a fight, you'd get more pewpew. stop complaining abotu not being able to catch people who try adn run when you dont want to put any effort into it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-04-03 03:16:18 UTC
Holy8th wrote:
3. The only known method for for preventing this is dropping cans/drones on a gate to prevent thus said cloaking, which is considered a exploit.

Uh, what? No it isn't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
churrros
afwewafe
#6 - 2012-04-03 03:32:50 UTC
if any one in your fleet thats okay with not getting on any killmails near sentry guns would bother to fly an inty and decloak the T2 cloakers, you can catch them.

People do it in null sec all the time.

The problem is, are there people willing to make sacrifices for the fleet within your group of friends? lol

If you have around 3 dedicated decloakers you will probably get some of the T2+Mwd cloak warpers.

Don't try to whine out of a game mechanic that has a clear counter
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-04-03 03:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
1. Any ship can warp successfully from small gang fleets without fear of being tackled and/or shot down.
2. Makes any type of fight or tackle on a small gate camp for instance worthless.
3. The only known method for for preventing this is dropping cans/drones on a gate to prevent thus said cloaking, which is considered a exploit.
4. Even a ceptor with full boosts has issues decloaking the target(and tackling it and not getting insta popped by gateguns).


1-2 seem perfectly fair given that there's no way sans alts for anyone to know that a gatecamp is on the other side.

3. is wrong. It's not an exploit unless you're dropping lag-inducing amounts of cans.

4. Depends heavily on how agile the ship is.


Quote:
1. ANY ship can move freely in high, lowsec, or nullsec(if no bubbles are present) without hinderance as long as it can fit these two modules.


The only place where it even comes remotely close to free movement is high/lowsec...And given that they are supposed to be significantly safer than nullsec, this seems perfectly fair.. Additionally, fitting a t2 cloak to every ship is not reasonable. Generally having a cloak + MWD implies they specifically travel fit.


Quote:
2. Makes taking territory or laying claim to a area worthless in lowsec, as there is no means of controlling traffic.


Holding territory in lowsec is supposed to be difficult. That's why it's lowsec, not sov 0.0.

Quote:
3. small gang warfare in lowsec is broken due to this.

******* seriously? Small gang warfare is broken because you can't easily gank people who specifically fit to dodge camps in a sector of space that is full of unavoidable pipes?
Holy8th
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2012-04-03 07:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Holy8th
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
1. Any ship can warp successfully from small gang fleets without fear of being tackled and/or shot down.
2. Makes any type of fight or tackle on a small gate camp for instance worthless.
3. The only known method for for preventing this is dropping cans/drones on a gate to prevent thus said cloaking, which is considered a exploit.
4. Even a ceptor with full boosts has issues decloaking the target(and tackling it and not getting insta popped by gateguns).


1-2 seem perfectly fair given that there's no way sans alts for anyone to know that a gatecamp is on the other side.

3. is wrong. It's not an exploit unless you're dropping lag-inducing amounts of cans.

4. Depends heavily on how agile the ship is.


Quote:
1. ANY ship can move freely in high, lowsec, or nullsec(if no bubbles are present) without hinderance as long as it can fit these two modules.


The only place where it even comes remotely close to free movement is high/lowsec...And given that they are supposed to be significantly safer than nullsec, this seems perfectly fair.. Additionally, fitting a t2 cloak to every ship is not reasonable. Generally having a cloak + MWD implies they specifically travel fit.


Quote:
2. Makes taking territory or laying claim to a area worthless in lowsec, as there is no means of controlling traffic.


Holding territory in lowsec is supposed to be difficult. That's why it's lowsec, not sov 0.0.

Quote:
3. small gang warfare in lowsec is broken due to this.

******* seriously? Small gang warfare is broken because you can't easily gank people who specifically fit to dodge camps in a sector of space that is full of unavoidable pipes?


so lets start on your weak counters.
First four:
1-2: So in your oppinion, any ship should be allowed free transit anywhere in high or low if they want to without having risk? Have you become a miner and now use this to transit your ore?
2: Lag inducing amount of cans are required to cover a gate to prevent cloaking and it is petitionable.
4: Yes it does, but the difference is, why should a player have to sacrifice a ship for something as rediculus as decloaking another to tackle it?

Next three:
1. remotely close? thats really funny. If the person has any ounce of skill, they can easily do this with no issues in low or highsec.

2. Not so much for holding territory, more as for controlling traffic when non covert ops ships can easily slip by.

3. Perhaps small gang warefare as its entirety is not broken, BUT gatecamps(a part of a pirates career) becomes severely hampered by this. This removes the risk in people generating isk in lowsec, thus nerfing it as any carebear has the capability of using this.

All this coming from a man with under three hundred kills? Cute. Go back to ninja salvaging.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#9 - 2012-04-03 07:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Fun Fact, you CAN catch them, watch your overview and screen, fit soem sensor boosters, most people arent good enough tog et the "insta-holy warp of invulnerability" you describe, adn in fact atke a second or 2 to get up, so use some sebo's and keep an eye out, throw a warp disruptor, target caught.

or better yet, leave your agtecamping in nullsec where you can egt a bubble up, ever think maybe the reason people only travel through your lowsec gatecamp witht this setup is ebcause your INCESSANT gatecamps have made it common to just assume your their? maybe if you actually FOUGHT people who WANTED a fight, you'd get more pewpew. stop complaining abotu not being able to catch people who try adn run when you dont want to put any effort into it.

Fighting people who want a fight?

/me insert generic go back to WoW comment here

Non consensual PvP is a concept Eve was built on, HTFU and live with it.

*EDIT: I forgot to actually reply to the OP.

Holy8th wrote:
Possible Fix:
Make the improved or prototype cloaking device unable to activate when a propulsion module is active(lore wise "the cloak cannot be sustained due to its technological limitations"). Although for a covert ops cloak should not be effected by the change as they can warp anyways while cloaked as intended.

I agree with you that in principle this mechanic should be changed, but in practice it is not used very often. In all the time I spent gate camping only a hand full of people ever successfully used this mechanic to get passed us, if it's use suddenly becomes more common perhaps it would warrant a change.

In the meantime though, I think you may as well just accept that sometimes it happens. Gate camps pretty much just pick off the idiots anyway, if the person you're trying to kill is sensible or cautious enough to use the MWD trick chances are without it he'd merely have flown a different ship, scouted more thoroughly or moved whatever he wanted to get through via black frog.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-04-03 14:08:18 UTC
Shut off lowsec from highsec, problem solved. Can't complain about people getting away with a non-existant module yet, which only fits to battleships as of yet (BTW, most battleships die because cruisers / BC is king here for GTFO ability in large numbers), which has a 30 second spool up timer until activation as of yet, which for this last one means you must be terribad at catching people if 30 seconds isn't long enough to fly towards their last known location. Really, its 30 seconds until activation not 5? seconds of when a MWD makes a cycle then you turn off the cloak...so when you align, hit activation of the jump drive, hit cloak to wait for a cycle....yes, you have plenty of time to get to them because they are not actually gaining much speed, decloak them, because no module actually works while under cloak (miss cycle, you are screwed!), and there are supposed to be counters specificly in place when the MWJdrive is released (A different bubble for null since MWJ is ment to escape standard bubbles and a different point module I belive as well

I don't belive a cloaking device will ever work (until another rant about getting it nerfed and I enjoy the tears Twisted), because the only other option left was fast align frig and many times it has show to me fast align doesn't work once you up that sensor resolution to OVER 9000!!!. Since I have been caught so many other times, players have gotten very competent to catching everything BUT the MWD/Cloakers most of the time...but why bother anymore. lulsec Dwellers want these things: Catch all ships, nerf cloaking, they have no targets so request level 4s in lowsec, and they whine more everytime someone escapes....but the more they catch the less people are willing to bother going to lowsec. You actually are hurting yourself, by exterminating everything on sight, leaving no reason for people to even go to lowsec anymore

Hey, whine everytime someone gets through your gate camp. Its freaking awesome (licks tears from your face, not that I float that way) cause that means there are more people IN LOWSEC and you can catch them everywhere else but the gates from highsec. HERP DERP sorry for telling you a better solution then whining on gate camping because that is the best are you able to do.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-04-03 23:28:01 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Fun Fact, you CAN catch them, watch your overview and screen, fit soem sensor boosters, most people arent good enough tog et the "insta-holy warp of invulnerability" you describe, adn in fact atke a second or 2 to get up, so use some sebo's and keep an eye out, throw a warp disruptor, target caught.

or better yet, leave your agtecamping in nullsec where you can egt a bubble up, ever think maybe the reason people only travel through your lowsec gatecamp witht this setup is ebcause your INCESSANT gatecamps have made it common to just assume your their? maybe if you actually FOUGHT people who WANTED a fight, you'd get more pewpew. stop complaining abotu not being able to catch people who try adn run when you dont want to put any effort into it.

Fighting people who want a fight?

/me insert generic go back to WoW comment here

Non consensual PvP is a concept Eve was built on, HTFU and live with it.

*EDIT: I forgot to actually reply to the OP.


to clarify, im not sayingt aht he should only fight eople consensually, just that eh shouldnt whine when someone uses perfectly valid game emchanics to outrun/outmaneuver him, if someone wants to fit a ship for the sole purpose of running a agtecamp while sacrifing all other abilities of the ship to a severe degree, then they should be able to. and like i also mentioned in the same post you replied to, you CAN fit a ship to be able to catch these guys, you just have to ahve 2 or 3 guys with your and they ahev to be fit specifically for quick targeting/tackling. my whole arguement was based around that if he WANTS to be able to catch ships specifically fitted to achieve the role of running camps, then he should be willing to put forth the effort to recruit players in interceptors who are fit SPECIFICALLY for the role of decloaking them, in toher words, if he wants to catch somebody, eh should come prepared to catch them, not whine about how them ebing ABLE to outrun him is unfair.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#12 - 2012-04-03 23:35:44 UTC
like people said, its a valid mechanic and tactic for a decently safe travel through lowsec.
In null, it doesnt help much if you face people camping who know what they are doing.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#13 - 2012-04-04 00:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
take 1 inty or now af since not a bad thing to run mwd...

drone guard it....

and go dredge up the ship via bumping


Bigger the ship, the more likely it will not deviate from the last known direction you saw it head off in. Smaller the ship, well its more of challenge.


Bumping does not generate gcc. Frigate will live to bump all night long as long as it does not shoot anything. Yeah its not gate camp dps so they get paid to do nothing sometimes. But as you are finding out...not having bump frigates is losing you gank tonnage so aren't getting paid from loot anyway. gonna have to pick what you think is the lesser of 2 evils here.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#14 - 2012-04-04 00:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
so lets start on your weak counters.


Oh ****. I'm about to have my post destroyed and my arguments utterly countered. I can tell because you made a snarky comment telling me so.


Quote:
1-2: So in your oppinion, any ship should be allowed free transit anywhere in high or low if they want to without having risk? Have you become a miner and now use this to transit your ore?
2: Lag inducing amount of cans are required to cover a gate to prevent cloaking and it is petitionable.
4: Yes it does, but the difference is, why should a player have to sacrifice a ship for something as rediculus as decloaking another to tackle it?


1-2: As a point of fact, I think one of the core facets of EVE's design philosophy is that if you're intelligent and prepare then you can avoid being ganked repeatedly. Anything else would be horrifically stupid and turn ganking into press-f1 receive-killmail, and make anything other than PvP in lowsec/nullsec (or even hisec in wartime) pure suicide.

2. the key factor here being "lag-inducing". This is not its own rule, it's an extension of an existing rule which says "Don't intentionally lag the server".

4. Why should a player have virtually zero chance of escaping a gatecamp that he could not possibly know about in advance without having a covops alt?


Quote:
1. remotely close? thats really funny. If the person has any ounce of skill, they can easily do this with no issues in low or highsec.
2. Not so much for holding territory, more as for controlling traffic when non covert ops ships can easily slip by.


1.
If they fly a covert ops frigate (and even then it's no guarantee), sure (though then they have to worry about smartbomb camps or extremely heavily-camped gates with lots of cans or wrecks).

However, there is no other even remotely safeish way to travel if you're in anything other than an istabbed frigate.

2.
Yeah, when you have absolute control over who gets in and out (sorry, absolute control bar covops frigs) it counts as holding territory, because no one other than you can reasonably do anything there.


Quote:
3. Perhaps small gang warefare as its entirety is not broken, BUT gatecamps(a part of a pirates career) becomes severely hampered by this. This removes the risk in people generating isk in lowsec, thus nerfing it as any carebear has the capability of using this.


It does not remove risk at all. It just provides people an avenue of getting past gatecamps where previously they would have none. There are counters to gatecamps just like there are any other method of non-consensual PVP in EVE. Are you going to complain about 'carebears' using directional scan to see scan probes or people on mission/plex gates, too?

Quote:
All this coming from a man with under three hundred kills? Cute. Go back to ninja salvaging.


I'm not sure whether I'm more amused at the fact that you think you have access to every kill I've ever been on or at the fact that you think having more kills makes your suggestion less absurd. If anything it paints you as narrow-minded and unable to consider the wider balance implications for anyone's gameplay besides your own.
Holy8th
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2012-04-04 01:08:33 UTC
Quote:
Random terrible points made by kahega which show terrible pvp knowledge


Ahh im done attempting to talk to you, it is the equivilant to speaking to a brick wall. I honestly cant take you seriously, and yes i know kahega is your main with most of your kills. Perhaps attempt to get a few more non faction war frig kills and i can take you a bit more seriously. Or of course, you could always just go back to ninja salvaging.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#16 - 2012-04-04 01:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Holy8th wrote:
Quote:
Random terrible points made by kahega which show terrible pvp knowledge


Ahh im done attempting to talk to you, it is the equivilant to speaking to a brick wall. I honestly cant take you seriously, and yes i know kahega is your main with most of your kills. Perhaps attempt to get a few more non faction war frig kills and i can take you a bit more seriously. Or of course, you could always just go back to ninja salvaging.


Whether or not you take me seriously is irrelevant. The purpose of your post was to make a pitch to CCP and the purpose of my post was to argue against it in the off chance CCP read your thread and saw any logic in it.

Refusing to defend your suggestion (Or worse, using the cliche'd "you're not worth arguing with anymore" cop-out after less than a page of back-and-forth) isn't going to get you very far.
Engin neering
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2012-04-04 02:14:21 UTC
woooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaa wait a tick. How the hell am I going to get my haulers in and out of low sec!!?!?!?!

Holy what I don't get is why you can't find some one to pick on other then the helpless carebears. All we ever ask for is to be left alone while we shoot roids or rat in belts... gesh...

In all honesty I vote against this idea.

On a side note Capitols should be able to use regional gates.

That is all.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-04-04 07:40:42 UTC
1. Decloak with ramming speed, it takes 10s to cycle a mwd and 11-15s for a ab (used on some haulers), have a inty
2. Sensor boosted ships can get them sometimes
3. Nullsec bubbles
4. If you failed at above they deserve to escape from something they specifically fit against.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#19 - 2012-04-04 07:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Kahega Amielden wrote:


4. Why should a player have virtually zero chance of escaping a gatecamp that he could not possibly know about in advance without having a covops alt?



Map->statistics->average pilots in space.
Map->statistics->ships killed in last hour.
Map->statistics->podkills in last hour.

set autopilot for handy dandy line to help you see which systems to check.

I don't scout my cloak warpers. I do however admit its possible to lose one, but realistically in lowsec, you could only do that by a bad timing with a roaming gang in a junction system, poor dock/undock techniques or by not going to ground if there is an inty chasing you - as they'll get a shot at you every gate.

In null you have to expect that territory management tools like bubbles give the occupants a non zero chance of forcing you to combat, but there is still no reason to jump into a stationary manned camp. Mostly you should be at risk of the no-man camp and that is often 1v1 pvp.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#20 - 2012-04-04 13:30:08 UTC
Quote:

Map->statistics->average pilots in space.
Map->statistics->ships killed in last hour.
Map->statistics->podkills in last hour.

set autopilot for handy dandy line to help you see which systems to check.


Does not help you unless the gatecamp in question has existed for an hour or more just farming mails to generate these convenient statistics.
123Next page