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Crime & Punishment

 
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GMs - Please weigh in on the boomerang maneuver. Exploit (y/n)?

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#161 - 2012-03-30 11:59:36 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Expect a boost in Concord response time, warpscrambling ships with a GCC.

Perhaps with an Tornado it's not possible to warp around for 15 minutes to drop the GCC, but with a faster ship it is. A group of interceptors could probably pull this off quite easily. If this groups is big enough you can still take out anything.

As the latter is defined by CCP as an exploit ("Thou shalt not survive Concord!"), the fix to plug this, will likely put an end to the Tornado boomerang as well. The only question is whether we'll see it happen in the update next month or with Inferno.

Easy fix that doesn't kill the game...

Your GCC stays up(countdown stops at 1 second if need be) til you die, meaning CONCORD never gives up, and you can't leave system/dock up til you die.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Zarere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-03-30 12:17:56 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Snip


And you truly expect highsec bears to think this far?

No, CCP is going to nerf it.
zelma en Dairez
DeSoto Industries
#163 - 2012-03-30 12:37:27 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Well, well, well.
Freighters are now vulnerable to enterprising Tornado pilots, using the tactic as a multiplier.
I commend those who brilliantly applied and modified this tactic to handle those beasts. This is a revolution that could have a large impact on high-sec logistics.

Instead of the 'brain dead' brute force solution that nobody seems to have a problem with (ie, 20 Tornados on a gate, and before that 20 Tempests, and before that 20 Dominixes)....

The Tornado Boomerang allows pirates to replacing raw numbers with finesse and skill. Hopefully this will lead to a significant increase in freighter destruction in the coming weeks.

This is something I've hoped to see for a very long time.

I've flown freighters for years. I've even lost two to suicide ganks, to the Cardshark Influence and the Russian Thunder Squad respectively.

But effortless logistics in highsec (and JF's in nulsec) is a bad thing - and has been a bad thing for a long time. Loading up a freighter and hitting the Autopilot button as a path to easy risk-free wealth needs to end.

"I fly a freighter and there is no escape! NERF TORNADO!" Nonsense.

-Don't fly AFK. Its MUCH harder to bump a freighter effectively if they know what is going on. An AFK freighter, on the other hand....can be juggled indefinitely.
-Bring an escort. Azarus would work nicely. Why? (Attacking Tornados are GCC'd. That means you can attack them, scramble them, etc.) and foil the entire attack. Doesn't even require the slightest PVP talent - just requires you to be there.

Yes, requiring escorts mean that logistics are now 'more difficult', but now "Red Frog" or anyone, can dispatch pilots or hire mercs to escort the freighters - and mark up your prices on delivery accordingly. Personally, I would LOVE to see escorted convoys in highsec.

Also, remember that more difficult logistics means that trade opportunities for profit increase significantly. Shortages of ships, mineral or commodities in regions lead to ample opportunities for interregional profit - for the SMART haulers, as well as industrialists who want to fill a void. Today, markets are relatively flat across highsec space.......mainly because of frictionless logistics.

"1 Tornado can kill a Freighter - NO FAIR!"
Get a grip people. Its possible, but it is a parlor trick. It takes a long time to accomplish - and is incredibly easy for ANYONE to disrupt. Its the equivalent of "Foolsmate" in chess, anyone with a brain can avoid it. Groups of 3-5 Tornados are much more realistically dangerous - but easily counterable via the methods above.



1. I wasn't afk - I was at the keyboard all the time. It doesn't really take that much to accomplish either - fit, learn how to boomerang between your points, find someone to do the bumping - or if you have decent multitasking skills do it yourself - and away you go.

2. Explain how you counter 5 tornado's? I can't attack the bumping ship / ships - that will get me flagged and popped, probably for no benefit. If they are fit for full alpha, they probably only have to get three salvos off - the first one is a gimme, as noone can do anything yet. So now you only have to get two salvos more off - or if I have two escorts, two ships get popped the second warp in, two the third and the final one the fourth.

Thats 14 salvos, assuming the defenders get it just right with two escorts. From memory, the contract I was running was worth about 10 million isk, for which I took a 2 billion ISK risk, once you account for collateral. Thats a 0.5% return on investment, plus the time. I am fine with that risk, if you have to take a similar gamble in order to pop me.

However, if it is not deemed an exploit, I am going to have to pay probably 3 - 5 pilots per run as escorts, and run a webbing alt to get into warp faster. I wouldn't do this for 10 million - probably closer to 70 - 90 million.

I do autopilot my freighter sometimes - and understand that that is a risk. But when I have zero defence, even though I was actively at the keyboard, it is not something I agree with.

A tornado is 1.5% the weight of an obelisk - and yet can move it well and truly far enough to prevent warping or returning to gate - not that returning to gate is going to really help a freighter - you just end up with the same problem on the other side of the gate.

I'm not butthurt, no tears here - I just fail to see how it is considered not to be an exploit. I saw concord load on the gate grid three times, then disappear within a second.

If this is considered ok, it is no longer safe to move more than 100 million in a freighter, as that is basically the break even point - maybe 125 million now with the tornado hull on the rise. At the end of it all you can warp back to your Orca, and keep most of your high value modules - while I fail a high value contract for something over which I have zero control.

Once someone picks your freighter for this, you are unlikely to get away - even with an escort. The bumper can keep you occupied - come back for another few rounds!

I'm not interested in trade - I just enjoy hauling :) In the end, I will just train all my freighter pilots into other areas, and hit wormholes and go visit some low sec.

Killmail - http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12892762
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#164 - 2012-03-30 13:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Zarere wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Snip


And you truly expect highsec bears to think this far?

No, CCP is going to nerf it.


As I said, most bears can't be bothered to even using their Exhumer mid-slots.
To expect a freighter pilot to bring a pal along to warp scramble incoming Tornados is simply beyond the pale, I suppose.

If anything: this is SUPERIOR to the old 'freighter gank' model of 'brute force' - where the target literally had almost no recourse, except instant death. NOW, the freighter can take precautions that will always work - or simply be saved by random passersby who want to experience the 'Butterfly effect'.

Its simple to understand. Just as smart miners benefit from the destruction of stupid miners....
smart haulers (who bring escort and fly manually) would benefit from the destruction of stupid, lazy ones.

What I am going to say goes way beyond the brain capacity of the average carebear, but I'll say it anyway.

Highsec Logistics is quite 'frictionless'. Freighters can move goods throughout highsec with minimal risk and effort.
Think of it as a massive, endless, freighter conveyor belt - distributing goods between all regions. When a shortage of a commodity, in say, Dodixie occurs. Prices rise a bit, and the conveyor belt kicks in. Goods flood in from Jita, Rens and local manufactureres and quickly restore equilibrium.

Now consider the current situation!

The Boomerang reduces the manpower and resources required to execute a successful freighter kill.
Of course, these ganks are VERY easy to thwart. After all, one noob escort in a Rifter with 2 Disruptors results in 2 dead Tornados, and a safe freighter....)

Result: the conveyor belt is 'damaged' as AFK, unescorted freighters are destroyed more frequently. We have friction: pirates are now a barrier to 'free trade'.

Prices in different regions start to fluxuate, as moving goods is no longer 'effortless' - no longer simply a matter of doing a simple price comparison and hitting the Autopilot button. Freighters who are willing to 'play the game' and hire an escort will find their profit margins significantly improved. Local manufacturers win as well.

The game becomes a bit larger as other regions become more foreign - as market conditions from one region to another may actually show real, long term variations in price and availability. One region may have an abundance of Vagabonds (or Ferrogel, or Nitrogen Isotopes) while another rarely ever sees them.

If the Boomerang allows pirates to cull the unprepared freighters out there....

Winners:
Pirates! More explosions and looting!
Local Manufacturers: Less competition with 'cheap imports' from other regions.
Smart Haulers: Significantly increased profits from arbitrage!

Losers:
The Consumer: Prices will rise due to higher costs reflected in greater effort to move goods.
Careless Haulers: Losing freighters until they learn how to escort their ships properly.

This is the 'free trade' debate in a bottle. Would love to see it play out if the powers that be are willing.

After all, CCP puts all this effort into trying to artificially inject 'menace' into highsec with 'ooooh scary' Sansha Incursions.
We all found out how well that worked out - just ended up another crack pipe for people who like grinding missions.

THIS... has the potential to be the 'real deal' - add some real menace to the space lanes, and give players the power to take action and affect the outcome, one way or another.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2012-03-30 13:25:25 UTC
Hmm, the thread about this on GD was just deleted for no apparently reason.... draw your own conclusion as to what that might mean :P
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#166 - 2012-03-30 13:28:19 UTC
zelma en Dairez wrote:



2. Explain how you counter 5 tornado's? I can't attack the bumping ship / ships - that will get me flagged and popped, probably for no benefit. If they are fit for full alpha, they probably only have to get three salvos off - the first one is a gimme, as noone can do anything yet. So now you only have to get two salvos more off - or if I have two escorts, two ships get popped the second warp in, two the third and the final one the fourth.


Easy. If you want to be 100% safe:

Bring an Arazu. Multiple Long points = lots of dead Tornados to loot. Guaranteed to work every time.

If you want to go cheap, your reasoning that 1 escort = 1 dead Tornado is flawed....

A single noob in a fast Rifter with two points could easily break the attack. Overheated points roughly = optimal range of Arty, and you'll have A LOT of warning if your freighter starts mysteriously getting bumped.

Just because you died to something new, doesn't mean you are helpless to deal with it, or that it is bad for the game.

I think most freighter pilots simply don't want to be bothered with defense. Which is understandable, but why not at least consider sensible countermeasures before throwing the toys out of the pram and crying for CCP to take more sand out of the sandbox.

And before people accuse me of simply being a 'self-serving ganker':
No, I don't mine. But I DO rely on freighters to provide the bulk of my own income.
You can bet an Arazu will be tailing MY Freighter alt if this becomes more common in the near future.

The days of 'Undock Freighter from Jita, set autopilot, go to bed' are hopefully over. AND GOOD RIDDANCE.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#167 - 2012-03-30 13:43:00 UTC
Quote:

Bring an Arazu. Multiple Long points = lots of dead Tornados to loot. Guaranteed to work every time.


Or an interceptor, or a Broadsword, or a command ship fitted with the link that extends Warp Disruptor range.
Luna Luvgood
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2012-03-30 13:49:43 UTC
"NIIIIIIII" All HAIL KANGAROOS
MercenaryBlue
Federation.D'Aldeberan
#169 - 2012-03-30 14:39:53 UTC
There's an easy counter to this tactic.

Have someone on standbye in a frigate, equipped with a warp disruptor and maybe a few ECM/Damps modules.

Jam him, disrupt him, keep him in place long enough for CONCORD to appear and pop you both.
Tsalaroth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-03-30 14:45:30 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

-While approaching your Orca, prep your guns for unfitting first!

1. Before landing 'unload to cargobay' the ammunition first. (otherwise your drag and drop will move the ammo!!!)
2. Then ungroup your guns, using the small 'grouping' button provided next to the highslots. (this avoids a mandatory popup)
3. Land, and open the Corporate Cargo bay. (make sure the Orca is configured for it...hint, its a checkbox)
3. With all your turrets ungrouped and unloaded, you can easily drag and drop them one at a time into the Orca.
4. Do not drag and drop too quickly, wait for each movement to complete before starting the next, or you'll just spin your ship.
5. My personal best is saving all 8x T2 1400MM Arties, all 4 Gyrostab IIs, and the three Tracking Computer IIs.
Sadly, I lost the rigs and one of the Sensor Booster IIs in the explosion. Good luck beating that. :)


Wouldn't be easier to open your cargo at step 3, then the fitting window and click "strip"? Then you just click in your cargo, hit ctrl-A and drag it all at once.

Or does strip not work with ship maintenance arrays?
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2012-03-30 15:02:27 UTC
well, that didn't take long:

http://community.eveonline.com/mb/news.asp?nid=4972

also viewable from the news tab on the login screen
Ophelia Ursus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2012-03-30 15:02:55 UTC
welp, that took about as long as expected: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4972&tid=1

Quote:
It has come to our attention that players have been avoiding retaliation from CONCORD after committing criminal activities in high security space. We would like to remind you of the following information from Customer Support:

‘If you gain a Global Criminal Countdown by committing an illegal action in high security space, it is considered an exploit to attack a target after you warp away from the grid where you gained that GCC, even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC.

It is a violation of game policy to avoid retaliation from CONCORD and players who are found using this exploit will have action taken by Game Masters on their accounts. A fix for this exploit, including proper patch notes, will be released as soon as possible.



Lead GM Grimmi
Takoten Yaken
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2012-03-30 15:08:40 UTC
i shall be sure to follow that to the letter
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#174 - 2012-03-30 15:23:53 UTC
Indeed. According to the ruling, the boomerang maneuver is still legal as long as you stay on grid. Pirates rejoice! Take advantage of this GM oversight as much as possible before CCP notices the loophole.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-03-30 15:26:16 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Indeed. According to the ruling, the boomerang maneuver is still legal as long as you stay on grid. Pirates rejoice! Take advantage of this GM oversight as much as possible before CCP notices the loophole.


heh, personally I wouldn't want to test the GMs on that, so boomerang away at your own peril Twisted
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#176 - 2012-03-30 15:27:40 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Indeed. According to the ruling, the boomerang maneuver is still legal as long as you stay on grid. Pirates rejoice! Take advantage of this GM oversight as much as possible before CCP notices the loophole.


We are looking into how far this can be stretched. Even if you think you have found a loop hole, do not use it without asking a GM for clarification. Doing so anyway could still result in repercussions.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Mattadore
Doomheim
#177 - 2012-03-30 15:34:15 UTC
Herr Wilkus you dumbass. Way to inform everyone. Now their stupid (awesome) game mechanic is an exploit.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-03-30 15:39:43 UTC
New expansion coming early 2012!

INFERNO : CCPs personal war on hisec

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#179 - 2012-03-30 15:42:13 UTC
CCP DEV #1 - "How do we encourage more PVP in nulsec and losec?"
CCP DEV #2 - "By removing it from hisec"
CCP DEV #1 - "Brilliant!"

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
xxREDNUTTERxx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2012-03-30 15:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: xxREDNUTTERxx
First of all below is the experience i am speaking from, It has been a good run but seeing as CCP has official said "no" it look likes the end of this. (which means i can finally voice my opinion without fear of causing a premature nerf :P

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12824920

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12834288

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12882871

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12883092

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12891709


As far as i know myself and One other guy are the ones that first did this to freighters, (my idea i'd like to add Twisted) after I tested it on test server we gave it a go on that orca that is top. And we slowly got better at it over time


But to those saying it is "unfair" or and that we risk nothing. This is all i want to say i lost a good bil worth of ships getting this to work, and spent hours bumping freighters up to 700km of gates.(before we perfected it ) not to mention all the ones that got away, causing us to lose tier 3s for nothing. not to mention spending 45minutes warping no stop with gcc in hisec was not an easy feat and when mixed with bumping at teh same time made for the most intense eve I have ever experienced.
also lead to a few premature ejections. (lol sounds like a sex thing)

And secondly it is EXTREMELY easy to counter, most of those kills above were active, and there is several ways they could have survived. Out of those above NONE brought another ship to point the talos or tornado. or even ask in local.

In all the ganks i did ONCE a interceptor came out and tried to catch us, (caught one of us and the others stayed away for a while) then he left and the freighter died
also there is a JUMP freighter in there, I'd like ecplain that at no point are these ships pointed....... meaning if the pilot is there
he can jump out at any time. ( if he lost that JF while afk in lowsec or null he would be considered an absolute idiot, why should hi sec be diferrent, you should NEVER be able to sit 8 bil of isk and walk away)


Overall I have made a couple of bil, caused some of the best rage i have ever seen, and got some great quotes for my bio. (please feel free to check it out in game )

now to CCP, I hold nothing against you for nerfing this, (i will not argue that it does seem a little OP to use a single tier 3 to kill a freighter) But as i said above you don't see the hours of setting it up and perfecting it that make it seem a little less worth it.

Also would like to say that these are the things that keep eve interesting don't be to quick to stop people from doing things that could add a little more challange and direction to the game.
(having to have a escort in an interceptor for freighters could have been interesting)

think outside the square of nerfing, this is a sandbox, let us players figure out how to fix a problem instead of just running to you.


I look forward to feasting on many tears in the times to come.