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CSM 7 - We Should Not Accept This Behavior!!

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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#341 - 2012-03-28 10:37:30 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I can see your point if The Mittani had run this past the CSM in the first place we wouldn't be here and here stinks. It would be nice to know the remaining CSM members had morals though.

Currently it just looks like that they can't deal with a crisis with out The Mittani.


Everyone needs to step back here for a moment and understand that while group discussion is important, and teamwork necessary to work on behalf of the players to get things accomplished with CCP, the CSM at the end of the day is 14 individual human beings.

Those that want instant gratification regarding a big CSM statement are going to have to wait. Everyone needs to talk about it, and frankly not all of us have heard all sides of the story. This is EVE. Nothing it ever as it seems.

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really appreciate those of you in this thread that have shown respect for the fact that this is all happening literally while many of the CSM7 members are in planes travelling. Please give everyone a day or so to get home, get paperwork in, get into the conversation, and than we can get to work.

Its extremely premature to go doomsdaying about how we "can't deal with a crisis", and its certainly not fair to accuse those of us who want to handle this the right way as somehow lacking in morals.





And just to clarify, what I've primarily criticised the CSM members for on this thread is for what I perceived to be double standards in the treatment of the Alexander Gianturco issue.

On the one hand Issler Dainz is strongly criticised for coming out with an individual position against the Mittani remaining as chair by CSM members here in advance of the meeting.

Which might well have flown with me.

If certain CSM members hadn't already come straight out of the gate with pledges of support and loyalty to Alexander Gianturco continuing as chair in general discussion!

That Hans is a pretty horrible double standard I think you'll agree.

If nobody is to make a statement in advance of discussion then nobody should make a bloody statement. Its simply not reasonable to censure only those making one kind of statement while allowing the other kind to go without question.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Frying Doom
#342 - 2012-03-28 10:46:28 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I can see your point if The Mittani had run this past the CSM in the first place we wouldn't be here and here stinks. It would be nice to know the remaining CSM members had morals though.

Currently it just looks like that they can't deal with a crisis with out The Mittani.


Everyone needs to step back here for a moment and understand that while group discussion is important, and teamwork necessary to work on behalf of the players to get things accomplished with CCP, the CSM at the end of the day is 14 individual human beings.

Those that want instant gratification regarding a big CSM statement are going to have to wait. Everyone needs to talk about it, and frankly not all of us have heard all sides of the story. This is EVE. Nothing it ever as it seems.

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really appreciate those of you in this thread that have shown respect for the fact that this is all happening literally while many of the CSM7 members are in planes travelling. Please give everyone a day or so to get home, get paperwork in, get into the conversation, and than we can get to work.

Its extremely premature to go doomsdaying about how we "can't deal with a crisis", and its certainly not fair to accuse those of us who want to handle this the right way as somehow lacking in morals.





And just to clarify, what I've primarily criticised the CSM members for on this thread is for what I perceived to be double standards in the treatment of the Alexander Gianturco issue.

On the one hand Issler Dainz is strongly criticised for coming out with an individual position against the Mittani remaining as chair by CSM members here in advance of the meeting.

Which might well have flown with me.

If certain CSM members hadn't already come straight out of the gate with pledges of support and loyalty to Alexander Gianturco continuing as chair in general discussion!

That Hans is a pretty horrible double standard I think you'll agree.

If nobody is to make a statement in advance of discussion then nobody should make a bloody statement. Its simply not reasonable to censure only those making one kind of statement while allowing the other kind to go without question.

I missed posts of CSM members pledging loyalty and support. Why do I have a bad feeling if he doesn't resign we will be looking at a thread marked "[Proposal] Disband The CSM" and a high digit page count.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
JamesCLK
#343 - 2012-03-28 10:52:03 UTC
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.

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Frying Doom
#344 - 2012-03-28 11:06:54 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.

I don't agree with statements that he should get banned or perma banned as some people have called for but if he gets away free from this the rage will be so great as to make the "Summer of Rage" look like a storm in a tea kettle.

When I first saw this it was really nothing but now it's so massive there will be no forgetting or forgiving.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Prince Kobol
#345 - 2012-03-28 11:08:31 UTC
Just to show that the Mittani really loves us all

92:46:27 AM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, While I have the spaceship council work on their pleas for my resignation pledge retraction I need my "lolapology thread" locked or otherwise removed from front page. Till further notice spam Roadhouse references until publord scum rage out and burn the thread.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored ***
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#346 - 2012-03-28 11:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Frying Doom wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.

I don't agree with statements that he should get banned or perma banned as some people have called for but if he gets away free from this the rage will be so great as to make the "Summer of Rage" look like a storm in a tea kettle.

When I first saw this it was really nothing but now it's so massive there will be no forgetting or forgiving.


I think one thing that is totally funny about this whole thing is that a week ago a few of us couldn't agree on anything in the CSM voting fortnight, and this has totally polarized many of us - we're in total agreement.

I remember watching the talk on security, and one thing brought up when the botting topic was beaing spoken about was that some people actually sort of hacked the CCP client to get it to do what they want.

Sreegs response? They get instant bans. No warnings, nothing, just banned.

This kind of behaviour warrants the same, but I think CCP can give Mittani a break given his past help for them and the CSM. However, they need to come out and say the behaviour out of game isn't to be tolerated.

.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2012-03-28 11:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just to show that the Mittani really loves us all

92:46:27 AM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, While I have the spaceship council work on their pleas for my resignation pledge retraction I need my "lolapology thread" locked or otherwise removed from front page. Till further notice spam Roadhouse references until publord scum rage out and burn the thread.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored ***



Whoa, he sent that at 92:46 AM, it MUST be legit!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
JamesCLK
#348 - 2012-03-28 11:16:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.

I don't agree with statements that he should get banned or perma banned as some people have called for but if he gets away free from this the rage will be so great as to make the "Summer of Rage" look like a storm in a tea kettle.

When I first saw this it was really nothing but now it's so massive there will be no forgetting or forgiving.


When I first saw this it was a few people moaning about CCP, CSM and alliance reps using foul language in their presentations the same evening as the first day was broadcasted. Now it's an all out desperate war against The Mittani which just so happens to have exploded right after he was re-elected instead of two days earlier when the actual presentation was held.

Storm in a kettle is giving it too much credit; compared to monoclegate this is more like furiously stirring cups of tea.

Take that with a grain of salt, it's just my viewpoint.

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
Frying Doom
#349 - 2012-03-28 11:20:43 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.

I don't agree with statements that he should get banned or perma banned as some people have called for but if he gets away free from this the rage will be so great as to make the "Summer of Rage" look like a storm in a tea kettle.

When I first saw this it was really nothing but now it's so massive there will be no forgetting or forgiving.


When I first saw this it was a few people moaning about CCP, CSM and alliance reps using foul language in their presentations the same evening as the first day was broadcasted. Now it's an all out desperate war against The Mittani which just so happens to have exploded right after he was re-elected instead of two days earlier when the actual presentation was held.

Storm in a kettle is giving it too much credit; compared to monoclegate this is more like furiously stirring cups of tea.

Take that with a grain of salt, it's just my viewpoint.

not really sure why it grew so much as it did other than it was during the US time slot but everyone has known before the election started that Mittens was going to be the CSM Chairman anyway.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#350 - 2012-03-28 11:21:58 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just to show that the Mittani really loves us all

92:46:27 AM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, While I have the spaceship council work on their pleas for my resignation pledge retraction I need my "lolapology thread" locked or otherwise removed from front page. Till further notice spam Roadhouse references until publord scum rage out and burn the thread.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored ***



Hate to break it to you but that was me taking the mickey for the fact that the general discussion threads were being trolled off topic by goons talking incessantly about roadhouse movie. I made that up as a satire. For all I know Mittani MAY have given such an order or one of his lieutenents might have, but that jabber quote is me just changing the text of his "let jita burn" jabber from a couple of days ago. I didn't work that hard on disguising it tbh.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#351 - 2012-03-28 11:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
This was one of the posts from a CSM member that led me to feel Issler was being unfairly picked on for speaking out btw:

Quote:
I think everyone who voted for Mitanni had and has a pretty good idea of who he is in this game and what his alliance does. Did he get drunk and carry it over the line? Sure. And now he has sincerly apologized for it.

Nothing about this situation changes anything about who The Mitanni was before FanFest or will be now. He remains an excellent chairman, elected with a record breaking +10,000 votes, with the experience and savvy the players need to get the best possible results out of the CSM process.

Like a proper adult he took responsibility for his mistake, personally apologized to the player, and has made one of the most heartfelt apologies a person can make to the players as a whole. I suggest we in turn, as a community, also show the maturity to realize everyone makes mistakes; it's how they deal with them that reveals their character. I am willing to accept his apology and move on.

Alexander Gianturco has my full confidence and support to continue as chairman of CSM7.


Thats a resolution post not a "we're going into conclave to discuss a resolution post" - and I question its fair play to post a full endorsement of support for Alexander Gianturco's chairmanship as a single CSM voice while decrying another CSM's right to speak against it in a single voice.

(I've left off the ID for the specific CSM btw because I really don't want to pick on people or single anyone out, I'd just like to hear that the CSM collectively realizes it should not be doing singular pledges of loyalty and support to Gianturco while hammering on other CSM's who dare speak against him.)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Frying Doom
#352 - 2012-03-28 11:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Thanks for that, I didn't see that one.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#353 - 2012-03-28 11:41:04 UTC
I copied this from one of the general discussion treads as it seems highly relevant and shouldn't be missed

Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Protection from Harassment Act 1997

This Act was passed following concerns that stalking was not dealt with effectively under the existing legislation. The Act des not refer solely to stalking but also covers harassment in a wider sense. The Act states that it is unlawful to cause harassment, alarm or distress by a course of conduct and states that ‘A person must not pursue a course of conduct, which:

amounts to harassment of another
he knows, or ought to know, amounts to harassment of the other.’

Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
This Act defines a criminal offence of intentional harassment, which covers all forms, including sexual harassment. A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he/she

uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour; or
displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

Malicious Communications Act 1998/Telecommunications Act 1984
Under this Act it is an offence to send an indecent, offensive or threatening letter, electronic communication or other article to another person. Under section 43 of the Telecommunications Act 1984 it is a similar offence to send a telephone message which is indecent, offensive or threatening.

Both these offences are punishable with up to six months imprisonment and/or a fine.
The Malicious Communications offences are wider ranging, but under the Telecommunications offences, it is likely that the Police will use the former Act to bring a charge.

The Communications Act 2003
The Communications Act 2003 is by far the most recent Act to be passed. Section 127 states that a person is guilty of an offence if he/she

sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
causes any such message or matter to be so
A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he/she knows to be false,
causes such a message to be sent; or
persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network


Thats UK law on cyberbullying.

1. Alexander pursued a course of conduct that amounted to harrassment of another individual, as a former lawwyer he knows or ought to know that would be harrassment. Inebriation is not an excuse. So there is an argument that he has breached the protection from harrassment act in the uk.

2. Alexandeer used threatening and abusive language with an intent to cause harm whether in jest or not is not material. That is a breach of the criminal justice act.

3. Alexander sent a clear and threatening electronic message which is in breach of the malicious communication act.

4. Alexander sent a public commuciaction wth the purpose of causing annoyance and needless anxiety to another in breach of the communications act.


Maybe those of you trivialising this issue need to take a good look at yourselves. Cyberbullying costs lives. We are fortunate in this case that it hasnt however Eve wont be so fortunate in the future if this behaviiour is allowed to go unchallenged.

Alexander was incredibly stupid whilst drunk he made an odious statement that is clearly in breach of UK/EU law. Laws which were used on monday to sentence a twitter user for six months in prison for abusing Patrick Muamba after his collapse. In effect a student got sent down for mocking Muamba and saying he hoped he would die. That student didnt incite others to harrass anyone which is considered a more serious offence.

Suicide is an incredibly emotive issue one I would have thought the goons of all people would be sensitive to. Maybe those of you trolling on this thread need to take a look at yourselves. YOur defending the indefesible.


Alexander has said he will do the right thing and resign and I applaud him for that. It is an act of contrition that would go some way to rehabilitating him in my eyes. To try and weasel out of that action now would be reprehensible.

As far as the legal situation in Iceland is concerned they have applied for EU membership and are currently alighning their legal system to reflect EU law. CCP dont really have any choice but to investegate this and act accordingly. If they do not then they leave themselves open to litigation and or prosecution is situations like this happen and sombody stupid acts on it.

Alexander man up and do the right thing, resign.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#354 - 2012-03-28 12:29:03 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just to show that the Mittani really loves us all

92:46:27 AM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, While I have the spaceship council work on their pleas for my resignation pledge retraction I need my "lolapology thread" locked or otherwise removed from front page. Till further notice spam Roadhouse references until publord scum rage out and burn the thread.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored ***


LOL

You got trolled by a serious internet spaceships brothel pimp that thinks she's relevant. Learn to internet and stop believing the first thing you read.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Jack Parr
Kzinti Hegemony
#355 - 2012-03-28 12:34:12 UTC
I love how the csm is so quiet. I guess most of the members are truly scared to say something bad about alex. Isn't there supposed to be some transparency here? I guess the csm really is only interested in their own little worlds. If they cared about the players they would at least SAY SOMETHING. It's funny that the only csm player who stepped up and started a forum thread gets bashed by the other csm members. I guess she didn't get the memo about how nobody on the csm can say anything bad about the king of space.

The csm is worthless. Just disband because you people aren't going to support us. How much did alex bribe the other csm's to stay quiet?

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average goon."      - The Mittani
Frying Doom
#356 - 2012-03-28 12:40:33 UTC
Jack Parr wrote:
I love how the csm is so quiet. I guess most of the members are truly scared to say something bad about alex. Isn't there supposed to be some transparency here? I guess the csm really is only interested in their own little worlds. If they cared about the players they would at least SAY SOMETHING. It's funny that the only csm player who stepped up and started a forum thread gets bashed by the other csm members. I guess she didn't get the memo about how nobody on the csm can say anything bad about the king of space.

The csm is worthless. Just disband because you people aren't going to support us. How much did alex bribe the other csm's to stay quiet?

Issler, Hans and Darius have said something. Apparently they are not all returned home ect.. I said something similar myself a few hours ago.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#357 - 2012-03-28 12:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
War Kitten wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Just to show that the Mittani really loves us all

92:46:27 AM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, While I have the spaceship council work on their pleas for my resignation pledge retraction I need my "lolapology thread" locked or otherwise removed from front page. Till further notice spam Roadhouse references until publord scum rage out and burn the thread.

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored ***


LOL

You got trolled by a serious internet spaceships brothel pimp that thinks she's relevant. Learn to internet and stop believing the first thing you read.


Well it was satire for a reason you know. Who knows WHY the goons all started trying to derail those threads. My post might have reflected reality, might not, but it did have the desired effect and managed to get things back on topic so :shrugs: did the job.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#358 - 2012-03-28 12:44:35 UTC
Jack Parr wrote:
I love how the csm is so quiet. I guess most of the members are truly scared to say something bad about alex. Isn't there supposed to be some transparency here? I guess the csm really is only interested in their own little worlds. If they cared about the players they would at least SAY SOMETHING. It's funny that the only csm player who stepped up and started a forum thread gets bashed by the other csm members. I guess she didn't get the memo about how nobody on the csm can say anything bad about the king of space.

The csm is worthless. Just disband because you people aren't going to support us. How much did alex bribe the other csm's to stay quiet?


I've seen commentary from nearly all the CSM members in some form or another. Which rock are you living under?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#359 - 2012-03-28 12:44:57 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.
People were mad at Mittens before this; they were mad at Mittens during the presentation; they were mad at Mittens while the CSM announcement was made; and they'll continue to be mad at him.

The kind of witch-hunt that has grown out of his misstep more and more has the air of people finally getting a tiny gripping point that they can try to pry on to get some kind of release for all that anger and a sliver of hope that maybe they can hurt him… and that's why what they're doing is no better than what he did.

The thread in response to the actual presentation and statement, compared to the furious flood of threads that came after he had been re-elected, makes it abundantly clear that this is no longer a matter of what he said or did, and has everything to do with politics and getting revenge.
Frying Doom
#360 - 2012-03-28 12:59:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
You'd be seeing those threads anyway; people are going to be mad at Mittens regardless of the outcome.
People need to learn to forgive and forget - and let the CSM do their job.
People were mad at Mittens before this; they were mad at Mittens during the presentation; they were mad at Mittens while the CSM announcement was made; and they'll continue to be mad at him.

The kind of witch-hunt that has grown out of his misstep more and more has the air of people finally getting a tiny gripping point that they can try to pry on to get some kind of release for all that anger and a sliver of hope that maybe they can hurt him… and that's why what they're doing is no better than what he did.

The thread in response to the actual presentation and statement, compared to the furious flood of threads that came after he had been re-elected, makes it abundantly clear that this is no longer a matter of what he said or did, and has everything to do with politics and getting revenge.

I honestly don't believe that, I think some of the threads are just hate for him yes, but as to the election result, it was a forgone conclusion, anyone who even spent 5 minutes reading the forums knew that.

The problem is he seems to have really hit a nerve with some people, on cyber bullying with some people wanting him arrested. That is way over the line from my perspective but the jail Mittens crew is starting to build up momentum. With so much momentum from people wanting him off the CSM (only a few want him just to loose the chairmanship), to people wanting him temp banned (quite alot) to the perma ban group(also alot) and now the arrest him people gaining momentum, the time is past where he could ever go back to the Chairman ship and not have a huge rage storm that would make this look tiny. Also it would be picked up by the media for sure that CCP is soft on cyber bullying and death threats.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!