These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Data Site Improvements

First post First post
Author
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-10-02 17:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Affinity
Hello all.

So I'm CCP RedDawn on Team Space Glitter and a while ago I had some spare time to make some small changes to improve the exploration mini sites.
Some of the changes were received well, others not. So, due to my own love for exploration, I've taken some time out again from our normal release schedule to make some more improvements to Data sites in conjunction with feedback from the CSM.

So for your perusal, I'll list the proposed changes to data sites now.

* Removed all skill books from Relic sites and placed them into Data sites. (Includes Encryption books)
* Removed the more commonly dropped 'non rig-related' blueprints from all the Relic sites. (They will still drop in Data sites)
* Introduced all Cosmos site building materials to all 4 tiers of Data sites. (Info Shard, Com Tower, Mainframe and Databank)
* Introduced the higher tiered (higher value) Cosmos site building materials to all class wormhole Data sites. (C1 to C6)
* Increased the drop frequency of the Cosmos sites items that are currently on the Data site loot tables.
* All exploration Ghost Sites now require the use of the Data Analyzer module.
* Halved the drop amount of the most commonly used building materials found in all data sites. (EG: Positron Cords, Electric Conduits etc)
* All Ghost sites are now Cosmic Signatures rather than Anomalies.

The intention of this change is to hopefully boost the overall value of all Data sites, increase the manufacturing of Storyline modules, increase the demand for Cosmos site blueprints and increase the value of the most commonly dropped building materials.

Feel free to throw your thoughts, concerns and ideas at me here! Big smile

Note: The similarities of the Data and Relic hacking game are known, as is the Cargo Scanning/Cherry Picking of containers.
Both of these are outside the scope of my free time right now however but are not forgotten.

Fly safe,
CCP RedDawn

Team Genesis

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-10-02 17:27:36 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Hello all.

So I'm CCP RedDawn on Team Space Glitter and a while ago I had some spare time to make some small changes to improve the exploration mini sites.
Some of the changes were received well, others not. So, due to my own love for exploration, I've taken some time out again from our normal release schedule to make some more improvements to Data sites in conjunction with feedback from the CSM.

So for your perusal, I'll list the proposed changes to data sites now.

* Removed all skill books from Relic sites and placed them into Data sites. (Includes Encryption books)
* Removed the more commonly dropped 'non rig-related' blueprints from all the Relic sites. (They will still drop in Data sites)
* Introduced all Cosmos site building materials to all 4 tiers of Data sites.
* Introduced the higher tiered (higher value) Cosmos site building materials to all class wormhole Data sites. (C1 to C6)
* Increased the drop frequency of the Cosmos sites items that are currently on the Data site loot tables.
* All Ghost and Besieged Covert Research Facility exploration sites now require the use of the Data Analyzer module.
* The Guristas Research and Trade Hub structure within Besieged Covert Research Facility exploration sites now requires a successful hack to unlock.
* Halved the drop amount of the most commonly used building materials found in all data sites. (EG: Positron Cords, Electric Conduits etc)

The intention of this change is to hopefully boost the overall value of all Data sites, increase the manufacturing of Storyline modules, increase the demand for Cosmos site blueprints and increase the value of the most commonly dropped building materials.

Feel free to throw your thoughts, concerns and ideas at me here! Big smile

Fly safe,
CCP RedDawn


Interesting. Like the cosmos direction.
Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#3 - 2015-10-02 17:47:06 UTC
Will there ever be use of the high tech items that have dropped for so long?
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#4 - 2015-10-02 18:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Hi CCP RedDawn,

I am happy to see Team Space Glitter taking another pass at making Data Sites more attractive to explorers. I was happy with a lot of the changes made in the last pass, especially the item m3 resizing and quality of life improvements.

Here is a fairly large post I made back in May regarding the current problems with the site loot, and some potential solutions. Please take a read through it, and the linked Reddit thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5738886#post5738886

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2w6ge1/phoebe_exploration_data_site_feedback_faction/

Since the COSMOS items were added to Data sites, I've only got ONE loot drop from them - for the longest time I thought it was bugged, but I guess the drop rate is just that low. I'm glad the drop rate is being increased, and higher tier items added. I have a ton of COSMOS item blueprints from Sleeper Cache sites that it is almost impossible to find the building materials for.

Some other feedback:

  • Moving the skillbook drops to Data Sites only makes sense. Most of them are worthless, but the occasional Science skillbook that drops is still worth it. This won't really affect the supply of these skillbooks and increase value for Data Sites however.

  • I'm glad to see COSMOS items being added to Wormhole Data Sites - currently there is nothing that drops in them worth hacking, so this is a creative solution to add some value to them.

  • Switching Covert and Besieged Ghost Sites to using Data Analyzers instead of Relic Analyzers adds no value to the Faction Data Sites. It will just make it require a dock-up to change modules if you don't have them both fitted already. I don't see any value in this change.

  • The worthless "non rig related" blueprints are still worthless, even if they will now only drop in Data sites. That doesn't add value to the Data sites. Especially the Target Spectrum Breaker, Reactive Armor Hardener, and MJD BPCs. I have cans full of these that aren't worth building, and in a lot of cases, I don't even bother picking them up anymore. Reducing their drop rate isn't going to make them more valuable. The Anciliary Shield/Armor Booster BPCs are pretty much the only ones worth building.

  • Halving the drop rate of the building materials (EG: Positron Cords, Electric Conduits etc) makes no difference if there is still nothing we can build with them. Because Interfaces were removed from the game when Invention was simplified, the only thing they can be used for is some COSMOS items. Is Team Space Glitter looking at alternate uses for these materials?

  • This goes double for the "High-Tech" introduced materials, as they have ZERO manufacturing uses. Are their plans to introduce uses for these in game, or will they remain flavor items only?

  • What are your plans for replacing the Faction POS Tower and Module BPCs when we make the transition from POS to Citadels? These BPCs are a fairly decent rare loot drop, but since it was announced there will be no specific faction Citadels, how are these going to be compensated for?

  • Forcing a hacking minigame success on the Besieged Covert Facility seems a bit too much. The site is fairly difficult to run already due to the range you need to keep to prevent being webbed/scrammed by the Mordu's Legion NPCs, and because it is a Cosmic Anomaly. You are already put at risk for ~20 minutes while you run the site, and it will make it a predictable place to try to tackle while distracted if you have to run a hack as well. If Ghost Sites became Cosmic Signatures instead, it would give a bit more protection to run the site from local traffic. Alternatively, perhaps have the site despawn after all of the NPCs are killed, so it can't be warped to from the Probe Scanner window while you complete the hack. If they are already on grid cloaked, it won't make a difference however.

  • Are you going to take a look at Data/Relic Sites in the Drone Regions? There are still no Relic Sites in the Drone Regions, and most of the drops for building Drones (eg: Drone Capilary Fluid) are not worth that much. The Integrated drone BPCs aren't bad, but they are inferior to the Faction drones so in comparisson they make poor value drops. What about adding rare drop BPCs for the Sentient Drone modules, like the Drone Damage Amplifier, Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer, etc?
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#5 - 2015-10-02 18:02:20 UTC
Muahhaha!

Aww yisss

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#6 - 2015-10-02 18:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
CCP RedDawn wrote:

* All Ghost and Besieged Covert Research Facility exploration sites now require the use of the Data Analyzer module.
* The Guristas Research and Trade Hub structure within Besieged Covert Research Facility exploration sites now requires a successful hack to unlock.


Ghost sites need a Relic analyzer now - why are you changing this?
Besieged Sites: Referring to LS only - you need a specialised fit that is able to tank high omni dps and also do high dps in order to minimize the exposure time in a hostile environment. Adding the need for an analyzer will only make them more a gank magnet than today. Warp in cloaked, wait until rats are done and the explorer is tied up with the mini game, uncloak, tackle, kill.

What is the idea behind this change?
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#7 - 2015-10-02 18:07:16 UTC
Looks like a nice update to sites, though it is hard to give really good feedback without knowing the drop rates/tables. Data sites definitely needed some love, thank you!

- Than
Helo Dhals
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-10-02 18:08:30 UTC
As the owner of many storyline module BPCs, making the materials cheaper and more plentiful doesn't make me want to build the modules. Their price will drop as soon as the materials become more affordable. Making the modules have some sort of advantage (aside from just fitting) over meta 4/t2/faction is what would make me want to run the BPCs. Currently the storyline modules are inferior to T2 in every stat aside from fitting.
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#9 - 2015-10-02 18:11:17 UTC
Helo Dhals wrote:
As the owner of many storyline module BPCs, making the materials cheaper and more plentiful doesn't make me want to build the modules. Their price will drop as soon as the materials become more affordable. Making the modules have some sort of advantage (aside from just fitting) over meta 4/t2/faction is what would make me want to run the BPCs. Currently the storyline modules are inferior to T2 in every stat aside from fitting.


These are gradually being rebalanced as part of Module Tiercide. I'd make sure to give feedback as these passes continue.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#10 - 2015-10-02 18:11:40 UTC
I like the direction, but unfortunately I think your improvements are mostly limited by the fact that most storyline items are worthless. Combined with a proper rebalancing of them this would be fantastic, but AFAIK most BPCs and items used in storyline stuff arent used much and their value is mainly to collectors.

WH sites stem from a different problem, and if you want to improve the value of them ( which I hope you do) than the state of RE supply and demand needs to be looked at. Simply put, the supply is way too high, and thus the items value is so low that i know most Wormholers flat out ignore the cans. We run data sites for the sleepers and salvage but i dont think anyone bothers with the cans anymore.

Couple things I would like to see:
1. Make WH cans explode after 2 failed attempts, this rewards skilled players, and also helps decrease the supply. Cans in K space already do this so I don't understand why WH ones dont.
2. Reduce the amount of stuff dropped, thus reducing supply and increasing their value.

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Heiian Conglomerate
#11 - 2015-10-02 18:20:25 UTC
As a collector of and builder of storyline stuff, I'm happy about this change :)
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#12 - 2015-10-02 18:25:06 UTC
ExookiZ

Do you think adding can failures would reduce the supply for Ancient Relics and Talocan Wrecks enough to increase the prices for those T3 ship and subsystem BPCs? They are already subject to failure rates during invention attempts. This only affects Sleeper Relic Sites. The whole devaluing here has been going on for a while, but mostly because of the industry changes to Reverse Engineering. Is there more that can be done to correct this?

Sleeper Data Site cans only have generic Datacores in them, so there definitely needs to be more value added. The COSMOS items is an interesting idea, but is the potential of a rare drop enough to get wormholers to spend time hacking the cans, or will they just do it to get the site to despawn?
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#13 - 2015-10-02 18:30:56 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
2. Reduce the amount of stuff dropped, thus reducing supply and increasing their value.

This won't actually make a site more valuable. If you decrease the amount while increasing the value, you're sitting at a static point. The only ones who would benefit from such a change are the people who have a significant amount of the goods stored up already.

As for the overall changes themselves, I like that Data sites are getting a bit of reworking, but I'm not sure it'll be what makes me bother to fit a Data Analyzer again when I'm out exploring. The skillbooks are generally low-value, the non-rig BPC's that drop from Relic sites are mostly without value (and most are being sold below mineral cost, already), Cosmos / Storyline mods need some serious TLC from the tierecide project before they'll be of any real value, and halving the amount of the building materials will return to a similar equilibrium over the course of time (instead of 20 worth 500 ISK each, you'll get 10 worth 1000 ISK each).

I can see that the changes will increase the value of Data sites to a small degree, but it seems like it's only going to increase the amount of low-value goods you get with very occasional high-value goods. That will still struggle to compete with Relic sites (especially Sansha sites), where you get a much smoother (and often still higher) average.
naed21
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#14 - 2015-10-02 18:39:57 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
ExookiZ

Do you think adding can failures would reduce the supply for Ancient Relics and Talocan Wrecks enough to increase the prices for those T3 ship and subsystem BPCs? They are already subject to failure rates during invention attempts. This only affects Sleeper Relic Sites. The whole devaluing here has been going on for a while, but mostly because of the industry changes to Reverse Engineering. Is there more that can be done to correct this?

Sleeper Data Site cans only have generic Datacores in them, so there definitely needs to be more value added. The COSMOS items is an interesting idea, but is the potential of a rare drop enough to get wormholers to spend time hacking the cans, or will they just do it to get the site to despawn?


iirc, they doubled the drop rate in the odyssey expansion with the can ejections. But when they reverted the can spew they never decreased the drop rate and thus now every part of T3 production is laughabily cheap until you hit nanoribbons.

It was nice when T3Ds came out and we had a reason to go get the talocan hulls, but we still didn't have a reason to bother with the rest of the cans.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2015-10-02 18:45:41 UTC
Things like Electric Conduits or Armor Blocks are garbage. High-Tech items are also garbage.

What someone a couple of months ago suggested would be construction materials for pirate faction ships and modules. Pirate Faction production materials already exist as dead database entries and it could have been really interesting to see these reintroduced as components for the pirate asset production. Instead, however, we got the utterly useless High-tech garbage that's just cluttering the hangars, in case you collected them at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Doyle Aldurad
Stellar Winds Consortium
#16 - 2015-10-02 18:53:28 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:


* Removed all skill books from Relic sites and placed them into Data sites. (Includes Encryption books)
* Removed the more commonly dropped 'non rig-related' blueprints from all the Relic sites. (They will still drop in Data sites)

Fly safe,
CCP RedDawn


Please do NOT butcher Relic sites to make data sites better. Find them something new and unique. Making Relic sites suck more because you hope to make data sites suck less is not a solution.
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#17 - 2015-10-02 18:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Quote:
iirc, they doubled the drop rate in the odyssey expansion with the can ejections. But when they reverted the can spew they never decreased the drop rate and thus now every part of T3 production is laughabily cheap until you hit nanoribbons.

It was nice when T3Ds came out and we had a reason to go get the talocan hulls, but we still didn't have a reason to bother with the rest of the cans.


Loot drop was readjusted to 70% of value after Odyssey when the loot spew was removed. I don't know for sure if this included Ancient Relic drops from Sleeper Relic Sites, or the chance of a Talocan Wreck spawn.

I think more of that was due to the Crius expansion changing Reverse Engineering to let you pick the type of subsystem you wanted to invent. Previously it was a crap shoot and you got a random subsystem bpc, so on top of the failure chance, there were a lot of unwanted subsystem bpcs, so there was more rarity for the popular ones.
Xerxes Fehrnah
The Fallout Shelter
#18 - 2015-10-02 18:57:11 UTC
I do not understand why relic and data sites ever dropped differing levels of loot. One is not easier than the other. They have the exact same risk. The only reason there seems to be to have both is to create a fitting or choice challenge for exploration ships.

Then also I would like to know why Sansha relic sites drop so much more valuable loot? Why does CCP not balance it out so all region sites drop the same loot?

Is there some reason you want us to explore in Stain?
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2015-10-02 19:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP RedDawn
Thanks for the feedback so far, some good points raised overall.

To answer some reoccurring questions:

* Storyline modules should have a tiericide pass on them to make them worthwhile, however, this is at least a step in the right direction to give you 'some' more options in ship fitting (plus, is it not better that these items at least start getting more traction?)
* High Tech items are on my list to make useful
* Putting the requirement for the Data Analyzer on the Ghost and Besieged sites increases the value of the module. (Currently both Analyser modules are accepted in these sites and it's not consistent with any other sites)
* I'm making a plan to look into the use of the most commonly dropped loot
* The skill books and non rig-related blueprints will still be 'worthless' for a while, but over the long haul I will expect to see an increase eventually. (agreed though, this change doesn't fix this issue immediately)
* The Reverse Engineering supply and demand is something I will add to my personal backlog
* Yes there is a plan to replace the POS based drops once Structures show their wonderful faces


EDIT: Added some stuff

That's it for now, I'll be watching. Smile

CCP RedDawn

Team Genesis

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2015-10-02 19:04:22 UTC
Doyle Aldurad wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:


* Removed all skill books from Relic sites and placed them into Data sites. (Includes Encryption books)
* Removed the more commonly dropped 'non rig-related' blueprints from all the Relic sites. (They will still drop in Data sites)

Fly safe,
CCP RedDawn


Please do NOT butcher Relic sites to make data sites better. Find them something new and unique. Making Relic sites suck more because you hope to make data sites suck less is not a solution.


Relic sites still have all their unique loot, all I've done is removed their less valuable drops which also already currently drop in Data sites.

No need to worry.

Team Genesis

123Next pageLast page