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MD Borrowers and Trustees – A Resource for Investors

Author
Kara Roideater
#21 - 2012-03-18 12:07:52 UTC
My third bond (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266123&page=1#28). This one went through a number of permutations so is difficult to follow linearly from p. 1 due to edits but had a maximum liability of 38.4bil.

Here's a 16bil bond I secured last year (http://eve-search.com/thread/1554873-0/page/1#30) which I don't think overlapped with any of my bond.

Here's an earlier 15.5bil bond I secured (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1433700&page=1#1) which did overlap with my last bond.

A couple of other notes (btw, I think this is a very worthwhile project, especially if you stick with it and don't get burned out by keeping it updated):

TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.

In general, how far back do you want to go with data for this? I have a document that has almost all the bonds from Oct 2009-Oct 2010 that I could send you but your time might be better spent dredging the last 12 months (then we could pool our data and get a nice view of over 2 years of activity).
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#22 - 2012-03-18 18:31:10 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
My third bond (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266123&page=1#28). This one went through a number of permutations so is difficult to follow linearly from p. 1 due to edits but had a maximum liability of 38.4bil.


So would that be your fourth bond? I think I already have three of your bonds on the record so far.


RAW23 wrote:
Here's a 16bil bond I secured last year (http://eve-search.com/thread/1554873-0/page/1#30) which I don't think overlapped with any of my bond.

Here's an earlier 15.5bil bond I secured (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1433700&page=1#1) which did overlap with my last bond.


Thanks! I will add these when I do the next update. I have been trying to stagger the timing of updates a bit to give people time to contribute and also cut down on how often I have to compile.

Quote:
TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.


I found these two threads (IPO #1 and IPO #2). You were correct, 100 billion in all was raised as startup capital.

Quote:
In general, how far back do you want to go with data for this? I have a document that has almost all the bonds from Oct 2009-Oct 2010 that I could send you but your time might be better spent dredging the last 12 months (then we could pool our data and get a nice view of over 2 years of activity).

That is a very good question. My original idea was to record all currently active MD borrowers and trustees and their full histories. The list I have right now is the extent to which I have researched through the old forums. My hope in publishing this list so far was to offset the workload. Now anyone could give me additions and corrects (hopefully with links). My plan is to keep updating for however long I am active in EVE, so long as I continue to get other posters finding content for me to add.
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#23 - 2012-03-18 21:22:23 UTC
Here is a link to a very old (June 2009) document

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rv6wUUbaRuqM0OehgHa17dQ&output=html

I still find it rather funny that both banks are gone, and 6 offers on the low risk turned out to be ran by scamers (Cosmoray, and Bad Bobby).

In addition, while I have no outstanding offers of my own, I was a 3rd party collateral holder and auditor for a significant length of time.

TornSoul
BIG
#24 - 2012-03-18 22:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: TornSoul
Jake Andarius wrote:

Quote:
TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.


I found these two threads (IPO #1 and IPO #2). You were correct, 100 billion in all was raised as startup capital.


The total value of BMBE today is 220B+ ISK though - Which all belongs to the shareholders.

We did this exercise some time ago as well, you might want to try and search for that thread for more info.
If I recall my figure of max total simultaneous liabilities back then was around 500B or so (don't think I've exceeded that since).
This included BIG Lottery (anniversary round 100B++++), BMBE, titan lottery, BIG Deal, various bonds.
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#25 - 2012-03-19 03:27:11 UTC
TornSoul wrote:
This included BIG Lottery (anniversary round 100B++++), BMBE, titan lottery, BIG Deal, various bonds.


I have been debating compiling Chribba's lotteries and your lotteries. I think they actually fit all the requirements of being included in this list (active trustee, uncollateralized ISK debt). The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.

Quote:
We did this exercise some time ago as well, you might want to try and search for that thread for more info.
If I recall my figure of max total simultaneous liabilities back then was around 500B or so (don't think I've exceeded that since).


Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier.
TornSoul
BIG
#26 - 2012-03-19 20:27:38 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:
The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.

Dunno about Chribba, but with the BIG Lottery it's fairly easy - Ignore anything but the yearly Anniversary rounds :-)
Those are the only 100B+ rounds.


Jake Andarius wrote:

Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier.


ugh.. 2-3(4?) years ago... Doesn't help much I know...
Maybe search on my name in the MD forum... and then only on posts not made by me.
Should narrow it down quite a good bit.

Kara Roideater
#27 - 2012-03-19 20:54:37 UTC
TornSoul wrote:
Jake Andarius wrote:
The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.

Dunno about Chribba, but with the BIG Lottery it's fairly easy - Ignore anything but the yearly Anniversary rounds :-)
Those are the only 100B+ rounds.


Jake Andarius wrote:

Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier.


ugh.. 2-3(4?) years ago... Doesn't help much I know...
Maybe search on my name in the MD forum... and then only on posts not made by me.
Should narrow it down quite a good bit.



c. 18 months to 2 years ago. The answer was a reply to a question I asked on my main. It may have been in the last big BMBE bond thread or possibly the nearest BMBE monthly report to that (for some reason my memory is saying monthly report).

Another interesting question this raises is how to count IPOs as opposed to bonds (although it also has a minimal knockon effect for bonds too). Do you count as 'isk entrusted' just the initial investment in BMBE or the current value. Personally, I would incline towards the former as the isk growth has been worked for rather than potentially scammed and the later figure would involve scammed from investors + made for investors Basically, I would suggest counting only the isk that is taken out of the investors hands (it will also simplify valuing IPOs, some of which are rather opaque).
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#28 - 2012-03-19 21:07:54 UTC
Kara Roideater wrote:
Another interesting question this raises is how to count IPOs as opposed to bonds (although it also has a minimal knockon effect for bonds too). Do you count as 'isk entrusted' just the initial investment in BMBE or the current value. Personally, I would incline towards the former as the isk growth has been worked for rather than potentially scammed and the later figure would involve scammed from investors + made for investors Basically, I would suggest counting only the isk that is taken out of the investors hands (it will also simplify valuing IPOs, some of which are rather opaque).


I was wondering this exact same thing myself. I tend to agree with you. It seems a bit more fair to only count the face value of IPOs, but it does come at the expense of not really giving full credit to people like TornSoul who have literally worked years on a successful IPO. It is a trade-off. The additional advantage is that the original face value is easily publicly verified, and that is one of the general principles I have when it comes to compiling a list like this.
Kara Roideater
#29 - 2012-03-19 21:19:04 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:

It seems a bit more fair to only count the face value of IPOs, but it does come at the expense of not really giving full credit to people like TornSoul who have literally worked years on a successful IPO. It is a trade-off.


I think the place to quantify that credit is in a different metric, reporting amounts paid out or earned on investments. You can get that quite easily by multiplying bond lengths by interest rates and for IPOs, more problematically, by counting up dividends and increase in share value. I ran these figures a little while ago for the one year sample of data I had and there were few real surprises (a few people who ran bonds with ridiculously high rates were further up the list than you would expect on the basis of their bond size x length). It's pretty easy to guestimate the relative outputs though so your time is better spent, I think, on gathering the more fundamental info.
TornSoul
BIG
#30 - 2012-03-19 21:50:08 UTC
KISS would be my advice.

Once you start trying to "cover just a bit more" it turns in to a minefield.

So initial IPO amount - Fine by me (as long as it's stated)

Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#31 - 2012-03-24 00:33:39 UTC
Version 1.3
- Added TornSoul IPO 1, IPO 2, Trust 1, Trust 2, Trust 3, Trust 4, Trust 5, Trust 6, Trust 7, Trust 8
- Updated TornSoul Maximum Exposure to 214.7b
- Added RAW23 Bond 3, Trust 1, Trust 2
- Added David Forge Bond 5
- Added Breaker77 Bond 1, Trust 1, Trust 2, Trust 3, Trust 4
- Added S'ylph Bond 1
- Added 2009 IPOs and Bonds
Ariana DeSoto
High-Tech Duct Tape
#32 - 2012-03-24 01:27:46 UTC
My feelings are hurt. I don't see my offer mentioned. Even though my project went **** up and exploded in my face I still paid back my investor.

I don't always play EvE, but when I do, I prefer it to be a masochistic sandbox hell. Stay wardecked my friends.

Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#33 - 2012-03-24 01:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Andarius
Ariana DeSoto wrote:
My feelings are hurt. I don't see my offer mentioned. Even though my project went **** up and exploded in my face I still paid back my investor.


Sad I'm sorry. I originally compiled just a few names. Additions to the list are now almost entirely from recommendations posted on the thread. Do you have a link? It makes things a lot easier for me to add them. Big smile
Ariana DeSoto
High-Tech Duct Tape
#34 - 2012-03-24 02:01:05 UTC
Jake Andarius wrote:
Ariana DeSoto wrote:
My feelings are hurt. I don't see my offer mentioned. Even though my project went **** up and exploded in my face I still paid back my investor.


Sad I'm sorry. I originally compiled just a few names. Additions to the list are now almost entirely from recommendations posted on the thread. Do you have a link? It makes things a lot easier for me to add them. Big smile


Ask and ye shall recieve. Cool

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=56991

I don't always play EvE, but when I do, I prefer it to be a masochistic sandbox hell. Stay wardecked my friends.

Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#35 - 2012-03-26 21:45:45 UTC
Version 1.4
- Added Resiin Bond 1
- Added Ariana DeSoto Bond 1
Gatan Hahran
Brukterer
#36 - 2012-03-26 22:19:59 UTC
Gatan Hahran - 500 Million (Bond 1: 500m)
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#37 - 2012-03-26 23:13:24 UTC
Maybe ask to sticky this? Its a lot of useful information gathered at one place.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#38 - 2012-03-26 23:21:02 UTC
Double post... forums What?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Block Ukx
Winnie Blues and VB Crew
#39 - 2012-03-27 02:49:40 UTC




BSAC Stock Exchange



Third party services available.


Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
#40 - 2012-03-27 17:23:35 UTC
Gatan Hahran wrote:
Gatan Hahran - 500 Million (Bond 1: 500m)

Proper formatting! Thank you! Big smile



TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Maybe ask to sticky this? Its a lot of useful information gathered at one place.

I am not sure how keen the mods are on stickying user threads. Hopefully people will remember it and link to it in other threads when the need arises.



Block Ukx wrote:

Do you have links to specific bonds that you have done on the MD forums? This list is only compiling MD bonds where the investors are public information.