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The Golem - The "Meh" of Marauders
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James Morgan
Pod Republic
#81 - 2012-02-09 10:42:31 UTC
Gavin DeVries wrote:
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
James Morgan wrote:
running AB and shield booster alongwith NOS ( yes the NOS really helps in cap).


Last time I was trying NOS in pve was 3 years ago and it didnt work on mobs. Have they changed anything since then?


They do work, but each NPC has a set amount you can leech from them, and once it's used up you don't get any more. I used a heavy nos when I first reached level 4 missions, but abandoned it later.


Just NOS the bigger rats when you are shooting them. Get a faction nos (is about 10 to 20 mill in isk) their range is 30K enough for my AB Mach. You can also use the corpus type noses, they can go upto 42K but are a bit expensive (a couple of expensive mods can make you gank target for tornados).
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#82 - 2012-02-09 16:45:21 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

That is exactly why I pointed out a RS. Just fly.


I don't think it would be that much of a speed up, really. My experience is that the Vargur easily replaces choices 3 and 4, and generally case 2 as well. I'm still using the Vagabond for speed run missions, and the changes to the session timer have improved things to the point where it's not that much of a problem. Although case 2 probably depends on where you mission; since I run in Amarr space, the Gurista mission I encounter aren't the ones with the stupid amount of jammers. I've tried it in The Assault and Intercept the Saboteurs without real problems, and I never get Guristas Extravaganza or Gurista version of things like The Blockade or Worlds Collide.

The Tengu puts out 700+ real dps with kinetic fury missiles (haven't played since the change, so can't remember the new name) to just over 100 km. EFT graphs show the Rattlesnake fit you posted putting out about 750 dps to 50 km or so, then dropping off from there. The Vargur was able to complete the Sansha version of The Blockade (complete with all the tracking disruptors) in 23 minutes.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#83 - 2012-02-09 23:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
2 reasons missiles suck in general and Battle ship missiles (torp & cruise) in particular:

1. Precision skill only applies to long ranged missiles
2. There are no modules that specifically adjust explosion velocity or explosion radius


Target painters are not the answer.


HTH

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Sunviking
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-02-12 13:46:43 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
2. There are no modules that specifically adjust explosion velocity or explosion radius




This. A lack of modules equivalent to Tracking Enhancers and Tracking Computers for Missiles severely handicaps them in my opinion.

At the moment our only fitting options are damage modules (Ballistic Control System), and Target Painters (which benefit Turrets too anyway).

Something like a Ballistic Guidance System in lows would be pretty good, giving a good boost to Missile Flight Time while giving a small penalty to Missile Velocity - overal boost to total Range.
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#85 - 2012-02-12 14:35:06 UTC
I tried to use the golem, i just couldnt get my head around it, its too. Micromanaging everything, it eats concentration and the human brain cannot be concentrated that long. Kronos is without any doubt the best marauder nowdays, highest DPS and only 5 second reload times with or without, up to you, stable cap. Put an officer web on it and it can oneshotkill frigs at point blank range with guns.

The golem doesent need a buff or nerf, it needs to be reworked.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#86 - 2012-02-12 18:21:23 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
2 reasons missiles suck in general and Battle ship missiles (torp & cruise) in particular:

1. Precision skill only applies to long ranged missiles
2. There are no modules that specifically adjust explosion velocity or explosion radius


Target painters are not the answer.


HTH



Use: Implants,rigs,faction missles and with one tp you'd be suprised what can be hit.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#87 - 2012-02-12 18:35:56 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Use: Implants,


Oh, er, yeah. Hate to break it to you, but the ZMA implant only applies to guided missiles, and the ZMS implant only helps you hit faster things, not smaller things (i.e. torpedoes will still do next to no damage to frigates and cruisers).


Ireland VonVicious wrote:
rigs,


Hate to break it to you, but rigor rigs only apply to guided missiles. And fitting any rigs other than velocity/flight time rigs will severely impact your already small range when flying a Golem.

Ireland VonVicious wrote:
faction missles


These have exactly the same explosion radius and explosion velocity as their counterparts - only their base damage is about 15% higher. This means that you'll be hitting frigates for next to no damage with T1 torpedoes, and (next to no damage times 1.15) with faction torpedoes, at ten times the cost.

Ireland VonVicious wrote:
and with one tp you'd be suprised what can be hit.


You should try that someday.

Torpedoes: No damage vs. frigates - at any range.
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#88 - 2012-02-13 14:19:01 UTC
Ireland you should just release some raw fraps material of you doing a couple missions. I'd happily beat your times.
6ie
The Kiwis
#89 - 2012-02-14 19:34:07 UTC
So I as about to upgrade my CNR to a Golem, but after reading this, I don't think its worth my 60+ days. Most of my CNR skills are 4/5, so may as well finish them off.
KLizMaN
Stark Innovations
#90 - 2012-02-14 21:56:22 UTC
6ie wrote:
So I as about to upgrade my CNR to a Golem, but after reading this, I don't think its worth my 60+ days. Most of my CNR skills are 4/5, so may as well finish them off.


Yes. I'd say sticking with a CNR is a smart call.

KLizMaN
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-02-15 04:42:46 UTC
Definetly a good call ... My time spent on getting a golem to fly proper is utterly wasted on skillpoints that give me very little in return.

If you want to stick to caldari and missiles ... stick to CNR/Tengu.

Maybe golem would work better if it was reworked into a gunboat (would love a raven hulled gunboat version)
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#92 - 2012-02-15 07:00:24 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
Maybe golem would work better if it was reworked into a gunboat (would love a raven hulled gunboat version)


That would basically turn it into a shield-tanked Kronos.

Fixing torpedoes alone would go a long way though (range of about 30km before rigs/implants/skills, less need for target painters).
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#93 - 2012-02-15 16:48:34 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Fixing torpedoes alone would go a long way though (range of about 30km before rigs/implants/skills, less need for target painters).


Correcting myself: 30km base range might be a bit over the top. Right now, base range of torpedoes is about 9km (interestingly just the same as HAMs), so increasing it to 15-20km would be enough.
GF07M8
#94 - 2012-02-16 08:48:06 UTC
Turrets of all stripes have now gotten some kind of buff, cruise missiles and torpedoes have been left in the dust.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-02-17 00:21:32 UTC
Sunviking wrote:


Something like a Ballistic Guidance System in lows would be pretty good, giving a good boost to Missile Flight Time while giving a small penalty to Missile Velocity - overal boost to total Range.



Module that first buffs that range and then nerfs the range ... brilliant Roll
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#96 - 2012-02-17 04:20:07 UTC
The thread title names Golem the "Meh" of Marauders but Rattlolsnake sidetracking aside the only discussion has been how it's second to the Vargur.

There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those... unless they suck more in which case maybe they should just buff everything to Vargur level Roll

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
GF07M8
#97 - 2012-02-17 04:51:17 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The thread title names Golem the "Meh" of Marauders but Rattlolsnake sidetracking aside the only discussion has been how it's second to the Vargur.

There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those... unless they suck more in which case maybe they should just buff everything to Vargur level Roll


Guess you missed the whole thread being about how the Vargur, Paladin, and Kronos perform better with less effort, cost, and every other metric we could come up with.

It's not about the vargur, it's about torps and cruise missiles being antiquated weapon systems and the vargur's bonus (meant to be a partial crutch for this very issue) turns into it's own nightmare due to painter cycles AND fails to solve most of the issues anyway: ie. rage torps are never useful, javs are required for range, javs slow the golem even more due to their drawbacks JUST FOR BEING LOADED trololol, none of these torps applies full dps with all painters cycling to perfection, cycling those painters perfectly is annoying at best and down-right frustrating in most situations, oh and I guess this is a good time to mention those t2 rig requirements again and the fact there's absolutely no way to get a prop mod on this ship due to the painters eating mids for lunch.

tldr: regardless of how much bling/pimp/shiny you throw at the golem it is still mediocre. A t2 kronos, paladin, or vargur can easily exceed the performance of a golem in 9 out of 10 settings and in that 1 of 10 they still might muscle through faster due to the incredibly bad range on torps and the incredibly glacial speed of a prop-less golem packing javs.

Hope this caught you up to speed.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-02-17 06:51:52 UTC
It may have already been said, but,

"Putting the Meh, in mehrauders"
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#99 - 2012-02-17 11:17:56 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
There's a lack of discussion on the Paladin or the Kronos, surely if the Golem is the "Meh" of Marauders then there'd be reasons as to why it's worse than either of those.


Those have been stated in the thread.

1. Torpedoes (volley counting; necessity of rigs and implants to get halfway useful range since base range is equal to that of HAMs even though torpedoes are a battleship-class weapon; necessity of target painters (which are Minmatar EWAR anyway) even against BS-sized rats)

2. Target painters (two or three of them required, out-of-faction EWAR, juggling required)

3. Cruise missiles (Golem DPS is reduced much more than Raven/CNR DPS when using cruise missile due to one defender missile taking out 25% of the Golems volley instead of 1/6 or 1/7)

4. Lack of PG to fit a MWD when using torpedoes, meaning that you're stuck with no range and no speed.
General Trajan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-02-17 13:00:22 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:

4. Lack of PG to fit a MWD when using torpedoes, meaning that you're stuck with no range and no speed.



that is only correct IF you're unwilling to pay the cost to be the boss. that being you use a pithum a-type medium shield booster.

and unlike most people, i haz no probs rollin in pimp rides. and so what if it's meh now compared to the other marauders? at least it still looks way better than the vargur! lol

y'all leave my wounded bird of meh alone!