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Solution to AFK Cloakers?

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2017-07-17 20:20:09 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
Cindy the Sewer wrote:
Congrats, you have submiited an idea that has been submitted 999,999 times before and so we hit the millionth time mark!

btw....

YOU: Dear CCP, i have a great anti-camper idea !

CCP: Whatever it is the answer is NO !



Can you show me links to my particular idea please? I mean i could read every post in a 496 page thread, but you know I have a life, unlike yourself obviously, and really really dont have the time because RL > Eve. Oh i know, that's crazy right.
See you didnt post here to be helpful, what you did was post to try give yourself some troll epeen. Sad really that people need to do that to gain attention but meh..

Oh and for the record, no i dont agree with your views


Oh for FFS...you do know about this thing called google right?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=396348&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1682517#post1682517
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3359691#post3359691

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#42 - 2017-07-17 20:48:13 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Scialt wrote:
If any change is needed.... it's to add an automatic log-off timer after a certain amount of activity. (20 minutes maybe).

I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary. If the guy wants to sit cloaked while he's market trading on his other account and just look at the other screen every now and then... great. He's actively creating the deterrent.

But an inactivity log off hurts nobody as far as I can tell.


Go read the sticky and then slap yourself.


In a redundant thread, I don't see a problem posting the redundant solution that I prefer.

some other redundant answers that get posted to redundant OP's 'all the time:

"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose."
"Minerals you mine yourself are not free."
".01 isk station traders are mostly not bots."
"Get gud."

So... yeah, there should be an afk logoff mechanism. Has that been posted before? Yep. Is it still the best answer to AFK... anything (mining/cloaked camping/whatever).... yep.

I didn't raise the topic. But it is still the best answer in my opinion.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2017-07-17 21:15:04 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
How has this pointless thread not been locked yet? OP has some serious voodoo going on.

You are very right, you can't force the cloaker to try and engage you. Just means you need to be smarter.

While they're camping you, they aren't camping someone else. Consider their motivations:

1) Killing ships
2) Killing ships
3) Killing ships

They cloaky camp space because they want someone to be overconfident, fit a max tick ratting ship, and start making isk. Then they drop in, kill it, and get their jollies.

How much fun are they going to have when every time they drop on something, they get counter-dropped? How much fun are they going to have when they're the ones losing their gank-fit ships to a conventional pvp fleet?

After the first couple drops, they're going to realize you're just ratting in bait ships, and that you have a response fleet ready. They will leave, because there are easier systems with stupid fucks in them that can't seem to figure this little bit out.



You are making assumptions as to their motives. Often, Killing Ships is secondary. Perhaps they want to guage how easy it would be to take the system. perhaps they simply want to degrade the value of the system.

The whole point of the AFK camp is that you can't outsmart it--- they aren't even at the keyboard most of the time, so there's nothing to outsmart unless you think it's totally fair that sneaking in one alt a week ago then pressing the cloak button is equal effort to forcing everyone to stay at maximum readiness at all times until he decides to attack.

And if he does not? Oh well, time and effort wasted preparing for nothing, he wins. Or you can move out and leave the space to him uncontested. He wins again.

He is able to force and extremely assymetical form of warfare on you, with no way to counter it but fly stupid. For some, that's acceptable, but not everyone is stupid.


You can't outsmart an AFK camp? Really? My alliance is doing that right now.

My home system is being "camped" now. We ignore them, save for the cynos on our pvp-fitted ratting ships. They tried dropping on us a few times, they have lost billions, we've lost a single frigate. Haven't had a chance to even fight these guys yet personally, they're far too risk-averse to actually take a fight whenever I'm online. Maybe it's because they know we're ready and waiting for them with enough of a fleet to mop them up 3 times over, even before escalations.

In short, the simple solution is to kill the campers. Asymmetric warfare only works when you let them make it asymmetric. Don't let them dictate the terms of the engagements in your house. It's yours. Prove it or lose it.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#44 - 2017-07-18 02:31:48 UTC
So go ahead, kill the campers.

You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.

So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2017-07-18 04:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So go ahead, kill the campers.

You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.

So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value.


Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support.

For the love of God stop crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2017-07-18 07:40:47 UTC
Remove local and you remove the problem.
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#47 - 2017-07-18 09:24:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So go ahead, kill the campers.

You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.

So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value.


Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support.

For the love of God some crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it.


Yeah i mean i guess when its you guys (and i mean goons) cloaking camping (its funny how you keep disputing the problem isnt it), which you do a lot, its ok right? I mean everyone can fight against 50 caps that jump in through cynos right? I mean you fought of all the alliances that kicked your ass in WWB right? Oh wait no you didnt.

Stpo being ridiculous. The problem is, if we want to get down to it, is the ability to cyno in caps/sub caps instantly. Thats the problem for people. When you can cyno in 100,200 + ships thats the problem, not being prepared to get in a fleet.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#48 - 2017-07-18 12:58:38 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary.

Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly.
Emergency cyno alts.
Dodging a war dec.
Watching a worm hole entrance / exit.
Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole.
And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#49 - 2017-07-18 15:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Scialt
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary.

Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly.
Emergency cyno alts.
Dodging a war dec.
Watching a worm hole entrance / exit.
Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole.
And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.


All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.

If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.

If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?

As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well.

I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2017-07-18 15:02:34 UTC
No Scialt. It's a trash option. It belongs in the sticky with the other trash.

All a null bear has to do is wait twenty minutes and know that the cloaker is active or not. Not good enough. You shouldn't know whether hes there or not by just waiting around a bit. Yeesh!

Best option has, and always will be, remove local.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#51 - 2017-07-18 15:05:02 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?
.



Was wondering when this bullshit would pop up again. Yet another null bear showing their ignorance.

I would just rather play an mmo where people understand reward comes from risk and wouldn't whine to the forums when a problem is perfectly solvable in game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
Evictus.
#52 - 2017-07-18 15:51:53 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The problem is really the lack of options. With no way to force any action upon the cloaker, much less a fight, it creates a one sided "I Win" scenario where you can waste multiple peoples time indefinitely or simply leave the space entirely by either moving systems or logging off.


So your solution to a pvp game is to avoid pvp? See my previous post about being a coward.

If you want space, be prepared to fight for it. Sheep or wolf, you choose which you are.

EDIT:

Start ratting in this for a while. When they drop on you... you counter-drop on them. Sure your ticks will suck, but you aren't sitting in a station, and as soon as they DO drop on you, the problem goes away and you can go back to your max-tick fit.

[Vexor Navy Issue, VNI Cynobait]

Damage Control II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

100MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Warp Scrambler II
Warp Scrambler II
Warp Disruptor II

Cynosural Field Generator I


Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Praetor II x5


Liquid Ozone x500


In the afk cloaker scenario, it is the cloaker that is hiding from pvp.

There are no options for hunting him, which is why he is able to go afk. When he comes, he might come alone, or he might cyno in friends. If you get a defense fleet ready, he won't come at all... and then you are just wasting everyone's time. Or, you can just leave the space, either by logging or moving systems.

Either way, the cloaker wins uncontested. The system is disrupted, it's value to those that would use it degraded, and no options to recoup that loss exist.



Damn... I hate to say this, Mike, but you are a twit.

You just responded to a highly effecitve means of hunting them with some lame and unsupported comment that there is no way of hunting them... I'd suggest you develop sufficient game knowledge to understand ship fittings and how they are meant to be used before commenting on game balance here.

Okay, so yes you can't shoot a cloaked ship unless you happen upon their exact location. However, hunting is a skill which requires you to understand your opponent, and in this case it means understanding why the cloaky camper is there... Simply put, they are looking for suitable targets. The reason why the VNI fit posted above works? Because it looks like a suitable target, but, actually isn't. With the VNI fit posted above there is no warning, and no defence fleet in system. Nothing to warn them until you light the cyno and spring your trap. You counter the cloaked camper by baiting them into an engagement, and coutnering their cyno pack with a cyno of your own.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2017-07-18 16:20:02 UTC
I will also say that you are not entitled to your space. You are not entitled to fly in it, stage in it, mine in it, or rat in it.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to fight for it. You get what you take, and you give what gets taken from you.


Yes, by definition those engaging in asymmetric warfare will wait until the balance is in their favour. That's fine. If you're letting the balance tip in their favour, your stupidity is what cost you that fight.

Eve is an MMO. That means you fly with your friends. If you don't have the ability to cyno in reinforcements, rat together. I can promise that a blops fleet isn't going to try and drop on 10 machs, vindis, or rattlesnakes. Unless they're dumb, in which case, free kills for you. Just make sure that everyone has a long and short point to keep them from trying to bug out when things inevitably go bad for them.

If you can't properly tank your ship anymore because you had to fight it for an actual fight, have someone fly logistics. They'll still get ticks, you'll get ticks. The only person not getting ticks is the "afk" dude who gets to sit alone by himself wishing that he was having fun.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2017-07-18 17:17:30 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So go ahead, kill the campers.

You admit yourself that they are still there. You haven't outsmarted them. You have allowed them to degrade the value of your systems by forcing you to fly compromised fits in case they attack.

So you were doing that already? Good for you, though it's too bad you can't protect your space and improve it's value.


Find your backbone. Get in a fleet with PvP fit ships, and rat away, mine away. Both ideally so each fleet can come to the aid of the other. Get on voice comms. Look at killboards when are they active. Look at the map and see if there is a system with people in it and go check it out. If anyone has alts bring logi, have them logged in with additional support.

For the love of God some crying to CCP to fix your problems. You are an adult...well at least technically...so act like it.


Yeah i mean i guess when its you guys (and i mean goons) cloaking camping (its funny how you keep disputing the problem isnt it), which you do a lot, its ok right? I mean everyone can fight against 50 caps that jump in through cynos right? I mean you fought of all the alliances that kicked your ass in WWB right? Oh wait no you didnt.

Stpo being ridiculous. The problem is, if we want to get down to it, is the ability to cyno in caps/sub caps instantly. Thats the problem for people. When you can cyno in 100,200 + ships thats the problem, not being prepared to get in a fleet.


There are always cloaky campers in many of our systems. There are people coming through in cloaks all the time as well. But it is rare to see a Goon here crying about it. Deal with it. Stop asking CCP to solve your problems when you have the ability to solve them yourself.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2017-07-18 17:19:30 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary.

Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly.
Emergency cyno alts.
Dodging a war dec.
Watching a worm hole entrance / exit.
Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole.
And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.


All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.

If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.

If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?

As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well.

I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.


And I can set up something to do it for me. As it does not allow me to acquire any advantage other than staying logged in, it is not in violation of the EULA.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#56 - 2017-07-18 17:46:25 UTC
Every now and then I'll see one of my guys crying in Slack or corp chat about a cloaky camper.

It's always, always that guy who hasn't shown up for a CTA in his entire life, and thinks pings exist for the sole purpose of saving his ass when his rorq gets tackled.

There is, undoubtedly, a certain type of player who struggles with AFK cloakers, and it is really hard to spare a care for their self-made problem.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#57 - 2017-07-18 19:21:27 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There is, undoubtedly, a certain type of player who struggles with AFK cloakers, and it is really hard to spare a care for their self-made problem.


^^^
Htfu or gtfo.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#58 - 2017-07-18 20:44:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I can't think of a valid reason why being logged on without moving your mouse or hitting a keyboard key every 20 minutes would be necessary.

Then you sir are a complete failure, or you lack any ability to visualize how or why this may be needed so here are a few that come to mind virtually instantly.
Emergency cyno alts.
Dodging a war dec.
Watching a worm hole entrance / exit.
Watching a structure for signs of activity when day tripping into a worm hole.
And let's not forget one of my personal favorites, making a bunch of big tough nul sec players like you cower in a corner and act like a bunch of scared children.


All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.

If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.

If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?

As for me personally... I'm not overly concerned about AFK campers. I fly cheap crap... if some long term AFK guy wants to drop on my 100m ratting VNI... oh well.

I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.


And I can set up something to do it for me. As it does not allow me to acquire any advantage other than staying logged in, it is not in violation of the EULA.


I could be wrong but I had always thought any botting was a violation of the EULA "under any circumstances."
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2017-07-18 21:35:58 UTC
Scialt wrote:


I could be wrong but I had always thought any botting was a violation of the EULA "under any circumstances."


You are incorrect. Here is the relevant portion,

Quote:
You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.


By simply being logged in I do not acquire any items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at all, let alone at an accelerated rate relative to ordinary game play.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#60 - 2017-07-18 22:45:45 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
You can't outsmart an AFK camp? Really? My alliance is doing that right now.

My home system is being "camped" now. We ignore them, save for the cynos on our pvp-fitted ratting ships. They tried dropping on us a few times, they have lost billions, we've lost a single frigate. Haven't had a chance to even fight these guys yet personally, they're far too risk-averse to actually take a fight whenever I'm online. Maybe it's because they know we're ready and waiting for them with enough of a fleet to mop them up 3 times over, even before escalations.

In short, the simple solution is to kill the campers. Asymmetric warfare only works when you let them make it asymmetric. Don't let them dictate the terms of the engagements in your house. It's yours. Prove it or lose it.


When did they change it so that people in NPC corps can join alliances?