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Breaking News: Citadel/Plex Contracting.

First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#501 - 2017-05-31 14:51:58 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:


If you buy from the market inside a citadel, 50 machariels for example, you need to have the freighters already docked and ready for transport, to prevent them from being frozen. Hiring a hauling company to deliver them is impossible because they would refuse citadel contracts.


In reality haulers are quite happy to haul stuff to and from a citadel.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#502 - 2017-05-31 14:57:35 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


How about they don't stuff all their assets in one structure where they cannot be sure they will always have access to? If you split your stuff in multiple places, you effectively protect yourself from this.

It's really easy, if you don't like the risk of being locked out, don't store stuff there. Every single player in the game has other options. If they are not willing to use those options, it's their own fault.


If you buy from the market inside a citadel, 50 machariels for example, you need to have the freighters already docked and ready for transport, to prevent them from being frozen. Hiring a hauling company to deliver them is impossible because they would refuse citadel contracts.


If you don't want to live with that risk, don't do business in citadels. Last time I checked, you could still do market stuff in NPC stations.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#503 - 2017-05-31 14:57:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:


If you buy from the market inside a citadel, 50 machariels for example, you need to have the freighters already docked and ready for transport, to prevent them from being frozen. Hiring a hauling company to deliver them is impossible because they would refuse citadel contracts.


In reality haulers are quite happy to haul stuff to and from a citadel.



Unless they get trolled by cutting them access.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#504 - 2017-05-31 14:58:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


How about they don't stuff all their assets in one structure where they cannot be sure they will always have access to? If you split your stuff in multiple places, you effectively protect yourself from this.

It's really easy, if you don't like the risk of being locked out, don't store stuff there. Every single player in the game has other options. If they are not willing to use those options, it's their own fault.


If you buy from the market inside a citadel, 50 machariels for example, you need to have the freighters already docked and ready for transport, to prevent them from being frozen. Hiring a hauling company to deliver them is impossible because they would refuse citadel contracts.


If you don't want to live with that risk, don't do business in citadels. Last time I checked, you could still do market stuff in NPC stations.



Perfectly fine with me, that only affects citadels owners.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#505 - 2017-05-31 14:58:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:


If you buy from the market inside a citadel, 50 machariels for example, you need to have the freighters already docked and ready for transport, to prevent them from being frozen. Hiring a hauling company to deliver them is impossible because they would refuse citadel contracts.


In reality haulers are quite happy to haul stuff to and from a citadel.
[citation needed]

Mr Epeen Cool
Salvos Rhoska
#506 - 2017-05-31 15:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
There is more at issue here than the scam.

The real issue is should there be a delay on access/standing changes in Upwell structures.

If you ask me, blocking someone from their assets for 5-20 days with a few clicks, is not equitable.

Just as Upwell structure owners can have time to defend their assets via vulnerability windows, so too should players operating with/in the structure have time to react to the eviction.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#507 - 2017-05-31 15:07:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
There is more at issue here than the scam.

The real issue is should there be a delay on access/standing changes in Upwell structures.

If you ask me, blocking someone from their assets for 5-20 days with a few clicks, is not equitable.

Just as Upwell structure owners can have time to defend their assets via vulnerability windows, so too should players operating in the structure have time to react to the eviction.


Put your stuff elsewhere if you want to protect them against potential access lock out.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#508 - 2017-05-31 15:09:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
April rabbit wrote:

Okey. But i've actually asked about the whole story:
- starts with scam
- ends with outpost owners to lose it's outpost

You know: the thing you propose about high-sec citadel scams.


Frankly a small corp wasn't going to take down VFK at the height of the power of the CFC.

So your "this mechanic existed in 0.0 sec for ten years" actually shows that these scams were working perfectly without any danger to scammers.
That's what i was suspecting but hoped for other outcome.
Thanks

baltec1 wrote:

Now with citadels in highsec that small corp can take away that citadel. I'd say that's an improvement no?

Small corp is not going to have any success if this citadel is covered by Merc contracts or belongs to alts or friends of some big entity.
Example: Main Perimeter citadels. Noone attacks it because they are protected.

All in all: the whole mechanics looks like very skewed towards bigger fishes. It was always this way in 0.0 space and now high-sec has fun learning it too. However i don't see reasons to keep it intact. At least in high-sec where there should not be real need to form bigger fishes to survive.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#509 - 2017-05-31 15:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Its their stuff. Why should they have to wait 5-20 days to get it out.


Because they were stupid enough to put it in a citadel they didn't own.

The problem is that people are expecting citadels (owned by people) to act like npc stations. They aren't the same thing.
Prior to citadels no one would have stored all their crap in some POS owned by someone they don't even know, and that's how people should approach citadels.

This is why people say 'pack light' when talking about null sec, you never know what's going to happen one day to the next. If people apply that kind of thinking to High Sec Citadels 99% of the complaints would go away.

But they don't, they treat citadels like NPC stations, thus misidentifying the problem as one of game mechanics.

And when CCP changes they game mechanics (they will eventually, they always respond if people cry hard enough, especially if they play in high sec), people will find new ways to scam/cheat/steal from these same people and we will be right back on this forum watching the same people asking for "one more mechanics tweet" in the never ending quest to mechanically fix/prevent stupid people from being stupid.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#510 - 2017-05-31 15:15:20 UTC
April rabbit wrote:


All in all: the whole mechanics looks like very skewed towards bigger fishes. It was always this way in 0.0 space and now high-sec has fun learning it too. However i don't see reasons to keep it intact. At least in high-sec where there should not be real need to form bigger fishes to survive.


Put your stuff in NPC stations and you will not have to deal with any of this. Nobody can lock you out of Jita 4-4 Caldari Navy bla bla bla because it's owned by NPCs.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#511 - 2017-05-31 15:16:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Its their stuff. Why should they have to wait 5-20 days to get it out.


Because they were stupid enough to put it in a citadel they didn't own.

The problem is that people are expecting citadels (owned by people) to act like npc stations. They aren't the same thing.
Prior to citadels no one would have stored all their crap in some POS owned by someone they don't even know, and that's how people should approach citadels.

This is why people say 'pack light' when talking about null sec, you never know what's going to happen one day to the next. If people apply that kind of thinking to High Sec Citadels 99% of the complaints would go away.

But they don't, they treat citadels like NPC stations, thus misidentifying the problem as one of game mechanics.

And when CCP changes they game mechanics (they will eventually, they always respond if people cry hard enough, especially if they play in high sec), people will find new ways to scam/cheat/steal from these same people and we will be right back on this forum watching the same people asking for "one more mechanics tweet" in the never ending quest to mechanically fix/prevent stupid people from being stupid.




By now we have asset safety preventing the "smart" people from losing their intelligence. I'd sure like to see that changed.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#512 - 2017-05-31 15:20:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
April rabbit wrote:


All in all: the whole mechanics looks like very skewed towards bigger fishes. It was always this way in 0.0 space and now high-sec has fun learning it too. However i don't see reasons to keep it intact. At least in high-sec where there should not be real need to form bigger fishes to survive.


Put your stuff in NPC stations and you will not have to deal with any of this. Nobody can lock you out of Jita 4-4 Caldari Navy bla bla bla because it's owned by NPCs.


But but, the prices are cheaper in citadels. I DEMAND foolproof access to other player's citadels so that I may enjoy these lower prices that I deserve!




Blink
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#513 - 2017-05-31 15:25:19 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:


By now we have asset safety preventing the "smart" people from losing their intelligence. I'd sure like to see that changed.


The problem with asset safety changes of how it affect the ever touted CCP publicity about coming back tot he game and finding all your stuff back where they were and usually having ways to get them back if you we're to do the required hoops jumping to get access back if the map changed.

CCP might not like the idea of their potential renewed customer not being as willing to come back.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#514 - 2017-05-31 15:27:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:


By now we have asset safety preventing the "smart" people from losing their intelligence. I'd sure like to see that changed.


The problem with asset safety changes of how it affect the ever touted CCP publicity about coming back tot he game and finding all your stuff back where they were and usually having ways to get them back if you we're to do the required hoops jumping to get access back if the map changed.

CCP might not like the idea of their potential renewed customer not being as willing to come back.



I have to agree with you there.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Salvos Rhoska
#515 - 2017-05-31 15:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
There is more at issue here than the scam.

The real issue is should there be a delay on access/standing changes in Upwell structures.

If you ask me, blocking someone from their assets for 5-20 days with a few clicks, is not equitable.

Just as Upwell structure owners can have time to defend their assets via vulnerability windows, so too should players operating in the structure have time to react to the eviction.


Put your stuff elsewhere if you want to protect them against potential access lock out.


Sure.
Like an NPC station or a structure you own.

But that doesnt change the disparity between a few seconds/clicks resulting in a player being, defacto, locked out of their assets for 5-20 days.

Lets say you have property in my garage and I suddenly decide to lock you out of it, with no notice.

You show up from across town, try to get in, and suddenly cant.
You wanted to leave your bicycle there to ride your motorcycle, or pick up something your gf wanted you to bring, or something you wanted to ebay.

No matter what you do, I have locked you from recovering your stuff for 5-20 days.
Eat my poopoo, dummie.
Even if you burn my house down, it will still take you 5-20 days to get your stuff back.

R U MAD?! TROLOLOLOLLL
GIEF ME YOUR TEARS AHAHAHAHAHA

Or instead, simply implement a delay on access/standing changes, so players can get their situation sorted, just like the structure owners have time with vulnerability windows to get their situation sorted.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#516 - 2017-05-31 15:35:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
There is more at issue here than the scam.

The real issue is should there be a delay on access/standing changes in Upwell structures.

If you ask me, blocking someone from their assets for 5-20 days with a few clicks, is not equitable.

Just as Upwell structure owners can have time to defend their assets via vulnerability windows, so too should players operating in the structure have time to react to the eviction.


Put your stuff elsewhere if you want to protect them against potential access lock out.


Sure.
Like an NPC station or a structure you own.

But that doesnt change the disparity between a few seconds/clicks resulting in a player being, defacto, locked out of their assets for 5-20 days.

Lets say you have property in my garage and I suddenly decide to lock you out of it, with no notice.

You show up from across town, try to get in, and suddenly cant.
You wanted to leave your bicycle there to ride your motorcycle, or pick up something your gf wanted you to bring, or something you wanted to ebay.

No matter what you do, I have locked you from recovering your stuff for 5-20 days.

R U MAD?! TROLOLOLOLLL


Well IRL, I would have to try to go through the legal system which has a high chance of taking weeks if not months compared to the ~5 minutes required to put a lock on the garage so even when compared to real life, it pretty much isn't that terrible.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#517 - 2017-05-31 15:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Snip


It needs to be changed because spending a few seconds and clicks to block someone from access to their assets for 5-20 days is disproportional.


As opposed to the the decade of losing access instantly forever?


Doesnt matter how long that was the case. It no longer is.

Upwell structures and Asset Safety are new, and separate from Outposts.
Asset Safety does not apply to Outpost. Outposts are loot pinatas.
Outposts will soon be phased out entirely.

None of which contradicts that spending a few clicks to lock someone out of their assets for 5-20days is disproportionate, even if you destroy the structure.

In the last decade destroying an Outpost earned you its contents.
This is not true true of Upwell structures where a magic fairy transports them free for you.


An expensive magic fairy, PL tried to headshot our staging along with NCDOT. and Fraternity, the magic fairy would have cost me 3.6bn ISK had they pulled it off, helped by the simple fact that my alliance has no other structure in that system which seems to be their choice, in other words if any entity can roll over the Fort then they can roll over the rest of the sov and they would know as the Goons kicked them out of Delve by using groups of supers on every node.. I understand your dislike of this mechanism, but in reality if it did not exist people would keep the bare minimum in 0.0 reducing content, I would not risk it.

In terms of your suggestion, one of the biggest pains of being in 0.0 was some plonker docked up in your main staging system and screwing up the market, that the Citadels block this type of rubbish is truly great, your suggestion would hamper this, because if you allow five days for everyone an enemy could use that to screw up the market so that the defenders could not get enough ready to defend, I have seen it done.

The contents of outposts were never gained by the victors, they just stayed in location until you had access to them again or left a clone there to sell at a later date. In fact the Upwell structures being destroyable and have a cost to recover your stuff which is not negligible is actually painful. I certainly would not have roam ships, home defence ships, all the doctrine ships and capitals all to hand like I have now if there was no saefty, let alone BPO's and resources and I think many would be like me. This would reduce content because if a roaming gang turned up and I had the bare minimum there and there is a CTA fleet in a couple of hours so I could not afford to lose my doctrine ship I would stay docked.

Null is actually fairly vibrant now with activity and it would be a shame to deliver all this stuff on a plate to the same alliances that made null such a boring place prior to the change in sov mechanics, because that will be the result of no safety.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#518 - 2017-05-31 15:38:17 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


Mr Epeen Cool


The contract market and the fact that looking at completed contracts over the last few days shows a huge number of completed contracts to citadels. Also the utter lack of evidence people are avoiding shipping to and from citadels.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#519 - 2017-05-31 15:41:13 UTC
April rabbit wrote:


So your "this mechanic existed in 0.0 sec for ten years" actually shows that these scams were working perfectly without any danger to scammers.
That's what i was suspecting but hoped for other outcome.
Thanks



The danger with this scam before citadels was the scam failing. Now the danger also includes your station getting deep fried.


baltec1 wrote:

Small corp is not going to have any success if this citadel is covered by Merc contracts or belongs to alts or friends of some big entity.
Example: Main Perimeter citadels. Noone attacks it because they are protected.


Have you tried?

Salvos Rhoska
#520 - 2017-05-31 15:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Dracvlad wrote:
Null is actually fairly vibrant now with activity and it would be a shame to deliver all this stuff on a plate to the same alliances that made null such a boring place prior to the change in sov mechanics, because that will be the result of no safety.


I dont think a <24hr window for someone to get their assets out when a structure owner decides to lock them out, is going to change any of that deleteriously.

If they choose not to do so, the same 5-20 day mechanic applies, anyways.

All Im suggesting, is give some time for people to get their stuff out, before the 5-20 day lockout to their assets happens.
Structure owners have invulnerability windows to extract their assets in case of attack.
I think players with interaction/assets/business with the structure should also have some time to get their stuff out.