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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#441 - 2017-03-24 23:14:12 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:



I'm okay with that!


Perhaps not - but 80+% of EVE would be...

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#442 - 2017-03-24 23:37:43 UTC
I see in the devblog that you will be uninstalling all of the reprocessing rigs so that people have the option of reinstalling them. This is a good move! However since you are giving an inch I'm going to ask for a mile Smile

Can you please uninstall all rigs on a structure that has a reprocessing rig on it? Chances are that the entire structure will be replaced by a refinery and it would be nice to be able to just reuse all of the rigs once we're done placing the new refinery. The old structure will in many cases be surplus to requirements at this point and be unanchored.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#443 - 2017-03-25 01:10:39 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. Let the chunks be completely random, with a higher chance of the good stuff if you have a large structure/t2 rig etc. If we don't all have to run to jita, that'd be great.


Nah. Regional moongoo is good, and gives highsec a chance to play.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Baldin Tarmain
B T C
I'm Feeling Good
#444 - 2017-03-25 05:15:03 UTC
1) As a small moon/reaction corp. Income will disappear without a fleet of miners.

2) Some form of tax/percentage of moongoo taken within a specified range of the refinery would go a long way to helping small corps recoup some of the loss without a fleet. Part of the field could lie outside of that range so ninjas could still ply their trade.

3) Will Asteroid mining volume drop because they'll be busy mining what used to be automated?

4) What will be vulnerability be?


zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
#445 - 2017-03-25 05:42:33 UTC
Rowells wrote:
[quote=zluq zabaa]...
Passive
- Planetary Interaction
- Industry/Research Jobs
- Moon Mining
- Market buy/sell orders (not immediate orders)

Active
- Mining
- Ratting (including missions/incursions/sleepers/etc)
- Hauling
- Exploration

The first list includes activities that do not require a pilot to be active or even online for progress to be made. The second list has activities that completely cease once the pilot logs off. No further generation or progress is made.


You list things that are all active, each of them. You have to be active for PI just as you have to be active for current Moon Mining, just as you have to be active for Hauling or Mining (well not so much actually) and you agree on that. If you do not compare the Time Investment vs. Profit in ISK for each of these activities your list stays pretty much worthless.
zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
#446 - 2017-03-25 05:44:13 UTC
Mr Bowers wrote:
Nothing ap force then NC and PL. With them letting people fight in the thunder dome they will have ton of peepons. I would say. Goons are doing a good job building up supers Shocked. They protect their miners for next year or so and will have a better c



Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:
Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy.


In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle.

However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed.


Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost?

Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen"



Querns even admits it. He profited in the past and now he doesn't want anyone else to profit the same way he had.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#447 - 2017-03-25 06:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
zluq zabaa wrote:
You list things that are all active, each of them. You have to be active for PI just as you have to be active for current Moon Mining, just as you have to be active for Hauling or Mining (well not so much actually) and you agree on that. If you do not compare the Time Investment vs. Profit in ISK for each of these activities your list stays pretty much worthless.

My PI chain is currently running while I'm not logged in. Care to explain how I'm active right now?

And what about these industry jobs? I keep checking them from the API and its still progressing along, but the mining alt I logged off this morning doesn't seem to have any extra ore anywhere in its assets?
Sigras
Conglomo
#448 - 2017-03-25 10:59:34 UTC
mkint wrote:
Rena'Thras wrote:
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.

CCP has made it crystal clear that small groups are no longer welcome in EVE. If that bothers you, you are welcome to unsub. EVE has become a marketing driven game, and if you don't N+1, you don't contribute to their marketing and are thus disposable.

Dude, this change is like, the opposite of that... This change finally gives smaller groups a way to subvert and fight back against the large juggernauts. Little by little, bit by bit, disrupted moon mining operation by disrupted moon mining operation.
Sigras
Conglomo
#449 - 2017-03-25 11:06:46 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
McBorsk wrote:
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. ..............


If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.

I'm okay with that!

Luckily you dont speak for all of us because being ok with that is idiotic!
X4m
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#450 - 2017-03-25 11:11:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today (including Rorquals).

.



The rich, who can give protection, will become even richer. The poor are still poorer.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#451 - 2017-03-25 11:19:35 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:

If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.

Unless you know, HS actually got it's own self sufficiency.
Because right now, Null is the only self sufficient area in the game since CCP gave it all the low ends, breaking their own idea of interdependent areas. The only issue Null currently faces is the fact moon minerals are regional, and that's always been bad design and is likely to change at some stage.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#452 - 2017-03-25 11:21:28 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
Mr Bowers wrote:
Nothing ap force then NC and PL. With them letting people fight in the thunder dome they will have ton of peepons. I would say. Goons are doing a good job building up supers Shocked. They protect their miners for next year or so and will have a better c



Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:
Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy.


In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle.

However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed.


Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost?

Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen"



Querns even admits it. He profited in the past and now he doesn't want anyone else to profit the same way he had.


Many, many people have profited from passive moongoo mining. I said that because, out of everyone in the game, we have the most to lose from this change, yet we champion it anyway.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#453 - 2017-03-25 11:22:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.

Unless you know, HS actually got it's own self sufficiency.
Because right now, Null is the only self sufficient area in the game since CCP gave it all the low ends, breaking their own idea of interdependent areas. The only issue Null currently faces is the fact moon minerals are regional, and that's always been bad design and is likely to change at some stage.


Incorrect -- nullsec is quite reliant on highsec for mexallon, foreign ice, and faction loot (and deadspace loot via central market hubs) as well.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#454 - 2017-03-25 14:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Basil Vulpine wrote:
I see in the devblog that you will be uninstalling all of the reprocessing rigs so that people have the option of reinstalling them. This is a good move! However since you are giving an inch I'm going to ask for a mile Smile

Can you please uninstall all rigs on a structure that has a reprocessing rig on it? Chances are that the entire structure will be replaced by a refinery and it would be nice to be able to just reuse all of the rigs once we're done placing the new refinery. The old structure will in many cases be surplus to requirements at this point and be unanchored.

Which would kill almost everything in production...

(it's not a terrible idea!)
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#455 - 2017-03-25 14:26:38 UTC
Baldin Tarmain wrote:
1) As a small moon/reaction corp. Income will disappear without a fleet of miners.

Then recruit miners... (#1 skills extracted is mining and reprocessing skills. Looks like Injectors will see a nice bump soon!)

2) Some form of tax/percentage of moongoo taken within a specified range of the refinery would go a long way to helping small corps recoup some of the loss without a fleet. Part of the field could lie outside of that range so ninjas could still ply their trade.

Nope, that's what the new Mining Platform logs are for. You do the math and collect the ISKies!

3) Will Asteroid mining volume drop because they'll be busy mining what used to be automated?

Of course, the whole point of this change is to remove AFK ISK generation from the RMTers.

4) What will be vulnerability be?

Following the Vulnerability times of previous Structures, large. Enough to prevent Time Zone tanking...



Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#456 - 2017-03-25 14:47:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
..........
Unless you know, HS actually got it's own self sufficiency............


I don't think you understand EVE and particularly its economy very well - if at all........

Without the HS produced ships and modules going to Null (and to a somewhat lesser extent LS) - the HS Mining and Production economy would fall to pieces.

Yes - there are those 'WoW in Space' guys who would happily just run missions occasionally, given that Ratting Isk is simply printed at will - but not a great deal else.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#457 - 2017-03-25 17:41:27 UTC
Sigras wrote:
McBorsk wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
McBorsk wrote:
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. ..............


If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.

I'm okay with that!

Luckily you dont speak for all of us because being ok with that is idiotic!


How so? People would still stay in the safety of HS running missions afk mining etc. it would just mean if you wanted to get rich, you'd have to go where the risk is there.
Gevlin
HollowPoint Studios Inc.
Phantom Horde
#458 - 2017-03-25 18:06:10 UTC
Is it possible to have moon mineral resources depleat and respawn in other locations over an extremely slow progression.
Ie a planet will replenish x mineral over a period over time, representing the advancement of technology able to extract out of previous useless places. Ie now we are able to extract oil out of tar pits, and fracking of old wells. Also the crashing of asteroids into the moons, like PI but slow growth rates and larger deposits to mine.

Will the refineries have to scan the surface like PI to pull up sections of moon to mine?

This will keep the map in transition for the giants, and leave open space for smaller groups.
IE Goons mine out cloud ring moons completely of r16 minerals and decide to move to delve just to feed their industrial engine.
6 months later they move back cloud ring once the moons have replenished, unless the local who moved in kept the moons depleted to prevent their moons from becoming attractive.

Also can refineries be able to jump. So after 1 moon is empty it can take 1 week to prep the station to jump. This would once again allow limited nomadic life style.


Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#459 - 2017-03-25 18:24:52 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Is it possible to have moon mineral resources depleat and respawn in other locations over an extremely slow progression.
Ie a planet will replenish x mineral over a period over time, representing the advancement of technology able to extract out of previous useless places. Ie now we are able to extract oil out of tar pits, and fracking of old wells. Also the crashing of asteroids into the moons, like PI but slow growth rates and larger deposits to mine.

Will the refineries have to scan the surface like PI to pull up sections of moon to mine?

This will keep the map in transition for the giants, and leave open space for smaller groups.
IE Goons mine out cloud ring moons completely of r16 minerals and decide to move to delve just to feed their industrial engine.
6 months later they move back cloud ring once the moons have replenished, unless the local who moved in kept the moons depleted to prevent their moons from becoming attractive.

Also can refineries be able to jump. So after 1 moon is empty it can take 1 week to prep the station to jump. This would once again allow limited nomadic life style.




The idea that we'd follow moon goo like this is fantasy. We'd just stay put and wait for the moongoo to come back, if your vignette was made real.

Moongoo just isn't that important to income any more.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#460 - 2017-03-25 18:57:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
Is it possible to have moon mineral resources depleat and respawn in other locations over an extremely slow progression.
Ie a planet will replenish x mineral over a period over time, representing the advancement of technology able to extract out of previous useless places. Ie now we are able to extract oil out of tar pits, and fracking of old wells. Also the crashing of asteroids into the moons, like PI but slow growth rates and larger deposits to mine.

Will the refineries have to scan the surface like PI to pull up sections of moon to mine?

This will keep the map in transition for the giants, and leave open space for smaller groups.
IE Goons mine out cloud ring moons completely of r16 minerals and decide to move to delve just to feed their industrial engine.
6 months later they move back cloud ring once the moons have replenished, unless the local who moved in kept the moons depleted to prevent their moons from becoming attractive.

Also can refineries be able to jump. So after 1 moon is empty it can take 1 week to prep the station to jump. This would once again allow limited nomadic life style.




The idea that we'd follow moon goo like this is fantasy. We'd just stay put and wait for the moongoo to come back, if your vignette was made real.

Moongoo just isn't that important to income any more.


Nah, you wouldn't if CCP ever were to do it properly. Any mechanical prime focus is easy to ride out, unless the feature set had a transient relation between organisational economics (taxation), demographics (activity) and subsets of geo-economics related to resource depletion/migration models (effectively introducing a non-behaviour based concept of entropy).

If CCP were ever to deviate from their historic focus on the mechanical approach (to instigating, guiding and limiting behaviour) that would be interesting. Fortunately for current organisational models they still hold on to that (yes, easy buttons to push really), so mechanisms provide boundaries and cause behaviour to follow, as opposed to the other way around (which, admittedly, would be more in line with the original emergent dynamic concept, and actually is what was directly responsible for the high retention in the first 3-4 years as well as demographics creating its own room - if I remember Oveur's old fanfest discussions correctly).

Right now it's only behaviour that provides entropy, so I can understand it when CCP says that this is sufficient. I guess I'd like it if it wasn't just that - if only because this slowly but certainly is compensated for with the exact same organisational models everywhere. I suppose in some ways this is why I can understand people (particularly those in lowsec) who don't feel fully comfortable with the current concept as presented in the devblog, because it does put them on the same paths of choice/consequence as null.

It's a case of progression paths for player organisation really, rather than a matter of resources and whether we use forks or fingers for them. In the long run it isn't healthy for a closed system like EVE to provide the same progression paths everywhere.

Don't worry about it. For whatever reasons some years ago CCP decided that developing EVE would no longer be a matter of following player behaviour pur sang, but instigating it themselves (and where not applicable inserting mechanisms based progression/choice guidance). They're not going to be as bold again as in the beginning, they don't have to. So I can't see any proper depletion/migration concept ever being introduced in such a way that you would not simply be able to sit it out as a marginal effect.