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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Cngaar Aya
Wormlife Freeport Operations
Wormlife
#421 - 2017-03-24 17:14:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: [...] However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.

For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.


As a video game designer for my day job, I really empathize with not wanting to take too big a bite for this.

That being said, it doesn't seem like that far a stretch to allow this mechanic to work with barren moons for ice and/or regular ore, and this would immensely revitalize wormhole space both by making mining ops practical...and giving hunters more things to hunt.

The lack of regular ore belts and ice anoms only ever in shattered holes made sense in an earlier era when there was the dream of making wormhole space not settleable, but that ship has long since sailed, and instead wh space has become a haven for smaller groups trying to carve out a place for themselves in the EVE universe.
Mr Bowers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#422 - 2017-03-24 17:27:06 UTC
Nothing I would say. Goons are doing a good job building up supers Shocked. They protect their miners for next year or so and will have a better cap force then NC and PL. With them letting people fight in the thunder dome they will have ton of peepons.



Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:
Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy.


In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle.

However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed.


Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost?

Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen"

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#423 - 2017-03-24 17:30:29 UTC
Quote:
Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.


Have you guys considered using Deep Core Strip Miners as the moon mining lasers? It'd help the Deep Core mining laser market as well as make training Deep Core Mining skill more rewarding to train. Using normal strip miners and mining lasers are better left to asteroids.

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Mr Bowers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2017-03-24 17:35:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.

Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today (including Rorquals).

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.
For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.



I'm sorry about not all moons need to bare T2 materials. This is eve and let's add a bit more to the table here. So place a different resources on the moons at the same time. I'm sure their a ton of players wanting to do this in empire. If it can't be t2 moon stuff then give us something else with this update. We all know once this feature hits you wont touch it for some time again.


Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2017-03-24 17:42:25 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
Querns wrote:
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:
Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy.


In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle.

However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed.


Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost?

Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen"


With alternate sources of funding.

Goonswarm Federation, currently, uses 0% of its money earned via moongoo for SRP. I know, because I'm the guy who turns all the moongoo we mine into cash, and I am the one who decides how that particular chunk of money is spent. None of it goes to SRP.

If we, the least capable and worst alliance in Eve Online: Noted Space-themed Spreadsheet, can manage it, so should you and yours.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
Together We Solo
#426 - 2017-03-24 18:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Rena'Thras wrote:
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.


You are absolutely right! But they’re not going to happen. As far as CCP is concerned the ‘small’ sizes are already in game and are the deployable like the mobile depot. What they are announcing is what we are getting.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6757639#post6757639


I wish it wasn’t so, I had high hopes for the new structures and hoped they would bring more granularity to the landscape. Instead they have removed rungs from the ladder at the bottom. And it’s not like the CSM or any of the regular ‘voices’ CCP listens too gives a crap about small scale groups or gameplay either. And for the ones that do, ‘small’ groups seem to be defined as over a hundred, not the many 1-30 man corps out there currently utilizing POS’s. Half the forum warriors from large groups will just yell ‘adapt or die’ (which should just be ‘adapt or unsub’) all while ignoring that the problem is options to adapt are being taken away from small groups with the new structures. It’s hard to ‘adapt’ when your choices are becoming more limited from what you had before.

Hell CCP didn’t even know that there was even any negative feelings towards these they are so disconnected with the small corp community.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6747090#post6747090

They REALLY needed to do a round table or something with smaller groups, but the fact they never did shows their level of concern is zero. Hell, I predict they will instead point to supper rich 1% indy guy who showers Mercs with banking ISK to keep him alive as ‘proof’ everyone can use these while the not so rich 20 man corp who had a POS and now want’s to build a home/base/indy startup will be told to just ‘uses someone else’s’. Just look at Fozzie’s reply on this thread about removing POS’s.The things that he is concerned about are not mobility for small groups, viable income for them or even the barrier to entry. It was all ‘cyno generators’ and ways for big guys to move caps.


CCP has raised the bar to structure ownership/gameplay significantly (all while marketing them to ‘everyone’), and have taken many of the financial niches that small groups use to keep up and handed them over to the big boys by default now. Just look at reactions. Right now there is kinda a soft upper limit to how many reactions a large scale/med operation can do based on how many POS’s the owners/logistic guys feels like dealing with, putting up, fueling, and managing (which is all a pain). But after these come out that limit disappears since there will be no limit to the amount of jobs per structure. So things where a small crop could buy the raw materials off the market and run some reactions at a no value moon to fill a gap in the market, or drug production are going to be gone since all production will be out of fewer of these run by larger groups (since they themselves will be able to fill those gaps on alts without the multiple POS hassle).

This is all great for the large scale industrialist, and the large groups needed the changes these structure are brining (I support most of the changes), but it really screws the little guy. Just like everything else about the new structures. And yet while with each new structure a larger part of the player base is feeling left out of CCPs vision for the game, CCP is really unwilling to even acknowledge it let alone talk about it with the small groups community.
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#427 - 2017-03-24 18:13:22 UTC
Manssell wrote:
[quote=Rena'Thras]I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

This is all great for the large scale industrialist, and the large groups needed the changes these structure are brining (I support most of the changes), but it really screws the little guy. Just like everything else about the new structures. And yet while with each new structure a larger part of the player base is feeling left out of CCPs vision for the game, CCP is really unwilling to even acknowledge it let alone talk about it with the small groups community.


Is it so bad that CCP implements stimuli for team play as an integral part of participation dependancies? Is it really so bad that they introduce much more subtle and healthier progression encouragements even across gameplay niches and game segments?

One of the most common issues in the past when population went up was that ultimately it crashed harder than the peak grew because of quite a few reasons, a very notable one being a lack of triggers (if you will) for players to increase the number of connections between them and the pace of discovering encouragements/requirements for them. Another such issue was that once rooted people barely moved on or beyond the segment they ended up in.

I know, you raise valid points which CCP also consider carefully. But they also need to consider the overall health of population development in general terms. Sure, sometimes in some places the bar is raised, but it raises it in such a manner that the age old fundamental principles rooted in economics of scale compensate very smoothly for those raised bars.

People don't even need to be in the same corporation, I've seen systems by now where people make team based connections regardless of organisation/identity.


Look, I'm sorry, but the little guy could get screwed much much worse. With the concept as is, at least he gets the choice to feel something or not. Proverbially speaking, obviously. Where it comes to solo play, sure, structures might not be it for that. Then again, not far from Amarr there's a few systems where some solo players run their own structures (citadel, ec's, pos). They have a little market between them, they team up with others, individual and corporate. They do their thing, yet they still make connections and thus get the use of such things for their own enjoyment.

Yeah, it can be tough for the little guy. EVE is real, so no surprise there. But unlike in the past, he's not getting shafted. CCP has upped the ante, but while creating room for the little guy in very interesting manners.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#428 - 2017-03-24 18:30:16 UTC
[quote=


CCP has raised the bar to structure ownership/gameplay significantly (all while marketing them to ‘everyone’), and have taken many of the financial niches that small groups use to keep up and handed them over to the big boys by default now. Just look at reactions. Right now there is kinda a soft upper limit to how many reactions a large scale/med operation can do based on how many POS’s the owners/logistic guys feels like dealing with, putting up, fueling, and managing (which is all a pain). But after these come out that limit disappears since there will be no limit to the amount of jobs per structure. So things where a small crop could buy the raw materials off the market and run some reactions at a no value moon to fill a gap in the market, or drug production are going to be gone since all production will be out of fewer of these run by larger groups (since they themselves will be able to fill those gaps on alts without the multiple POS hassle).

This is all great for the large scale industrialist, and the large groups needed the changes these structure are brining (I support most of the changes), but it really screws the little guy. Just like everything else about the new structures. And yet while with each new structure a larger part of the player base is feeling left out of CCPs vision for the game, CCP is really unwilling to even acknowledge it let alone talk about it with the small groups community.[/quote]


Exactly what I've been trying to say. The limiting factor on pos's (or cits) is what makes running reactions a way to make a living. Hundreds of alts running reactions = fractional margins. It's handing that whole segment of the game to station traders and others that never undock.

Also makes basic t2 manu incredibly tedious. building slots, copy slots, invention slots, and now reaction slots too?

T2 was interesting because it required non-mine-able mats and you had to be inventive. Now it's all just different flavors of ore, bought and hauled from Jita.

There was always a mild SP barrier to entry into t2, but the real barrier was the complexity, logistics, and relationships required to build profitably. You might even invest in reaction towers to churn out finished reactions you used a lot of. Now u JF to Jita, consult your spreadsheet, buy the precise volumes needed of ice, standard minerals, mined moon mins and jf home and start cycling through alts and running jobs in the standard indy UI. Or you milk the local miners for mats at 85% of Jita buy cuz they don't have a jf and u won't work cheap.. lol.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#429 - 2017-03-24 18:33:49 UTC
The people actually asking for new skills must have a bone in the injector market. That's all new skills or new ships with new requirements have already shown to encourage. There is no delay or gradual shift anymore, it's just inject and be perfect. I mean, if I were CCP I'd do it simply because more injector usage means more extractor and plex sales. But as a player I say screw that, just give additional uses to the already niche deep core mining skill. Hell, you can even attach the use of R-4/8/16/32/64 crystals to each level if you really wanted.
ReK42
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#430 - 2017-03-24 18:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ReK42

  • I like the idea of a new reprocessing skill for the moon materials but don't do it unless you pre-seed the skill book and give people enough time to train it to 5 before release. If you don't do that there will be a gap where suddenly everyone is stockpiling the raw material until they can refine it perfectly.
  • Similarly, a new mining skill seems good but tie it to new T2 mining crystals. Newbros in their Ventures should be able to take part in this corp based activity without having to specialize into it too far.


Other than the already talked about reinforcement mechanics there's one other major issue with citadels that really needs addressing. By putting so much of the cost of these structures into the rigs and making the rigs so specialized at the smaller sizes CCP have effectively killed small group/solo industrialism.

I do capital production (not supers). Currently I use one high sec POS to do research and ore compression. The results of this get shipped to null sec where I do capital production inside several engineering complexes. On the null sec side there are already 3 complexes required: a Sotiyo/Azbel with T1 rigs for hull production (because T2 is so expensive), a Raitaru with T2 rigs for refining and capital component production and another Raitaru with T2 ME rigs for equipment, fighters and T2 components. With the refinery changes that's now adding a fourth structure in null sec and the high sec POS would need to be split out into two structure (assuming compression won't be available on Raitarus).

All of this adds up to 6 structures, each with 3-5b worth of rigs, to do the job I used to be able to do with one small POS and an outpost. Granted, the industrial bonuses in null sec are quite a bit nicer than they were then but I also don't get TE bonuses anymore because it doesn't make any sense to have one Raitaru per class of item that needs producing.

There is now an absolutely massive startup cost which completely prices small/new corps out of the industrial game unless they can rely on wealthy members or take advantage of infrastructure other corps in their alliance have set up.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#431 - 2017-03-24 19:07:37 UTC
Will the new moon-roids (we have a name yet?) be compressible? And if yes, will the effective compression allow the same amount of transport as today or will it become more efficient (in terms of m/3 per moon mat)?
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#432 - 2017-03-24 20:01:51 UTC
Cngaar Aya wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: [...] However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.

For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.


As a video game designer for my day job, I really empathize with not wanting to take too big a bite for this.

That being said, it doesn't seem like that far a stretch to allow this mechanic to work with barren moons for ice and/or regular ore, and this would immensely revitalize wormhole space both by making mining ops practical...and giving hunters more things to hunt.

The lack of regular ore belts and ice anoms only ever in shattered holes made sense in an earlier era when there was the dream of making wormhole space not settleable, but that ship has long since sailed, and instead wh space has become a haven for smaller groups trying to carve out a place for themselves in the EVE universe.


Given that planets are what are barren or ice or plasma, etc. not moons exactly, I'd love to see this brought to wspace in this way. Allow barren planets to be fracked for ore and ice planets to be fracked for ice. This would naturally limit the number of resources available in wspace because planets are less numerous than moons and give wspace access to this mechanic without upsetting the balance of materials for T2.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#433 - 2017-03-24 20:15:40 UTC
Is there any concept art available for these Refineries yet?
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
Goonswarm Federation
#434 - 2017-03-24 20:31:22 UTC
Start stockpiling moon materials boys because people in lowsec wont mine moons anywhere near as much as current POS mechanic.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#435 - 2017-03-24 20:34:13 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
Start stockpiling moon materials boys because people in lowsec wont mine moons anywhere near as much as current POS mechanic.


What, you think we won't make up the difference?

You don't think YOU'LL make up the difference, alone? :V

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

cutthroat kane
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#436 - 2017-03-24 22:07:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.


Is there any plan to introduce a structure that replaces the ability to house (even a single) dread/carrier for the cost of a ship maintenance array?
Brigadine Ferathine
506 Irregulars
#437 - 2017-03-24 22:38:05 UTC
cutthroat kane wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.


Is there any plan to introduce a structure that replaces the ability to house (even a single) dread/carrier for the cost of a ship maintenance array?

Probably not... What a nightmare that would be.
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#438 - 2017-03-24 22:51:45 UTC
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. Let the chunks be completely random, with a higher chance of the good stuff if you have a large structure/t2 rig etc. If we don't all have to run to jita, that'd be great.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2017-03-24 22:59:51 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. ..............


If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#440 - 2017-03-24 23:02:30 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
McBorsk wrote:
We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. ..............


If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.

With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.


I'm okay with that!