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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

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SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#381 - 2017-03-24 12:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: SIEGE RED
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.



But .. what about the most important question of all?

Can we blow up the chunk moving to the refinery so we can harvest bitter tears?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#382 - 2017-03-24 12:27:14 UTC
Rowells wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:
Moon mining is not passive.

So when you warp away or log off for the night, the moon harvester turns off? Income generation halts?


pretty much similar to market orders not hiding when you log off, industry jobs don't pause, sp farming doesnt pause when you are offline, if it was a true passive income then isk would just go straight into the wallet without any work after the initial setup.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#383 - 2017-03-24 12:39:06 UTC
mkint wrote:
Rena'Thras wrote:
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.

CCP has made it crystal clear that small groups are no longer welcome in EVE. If that bothers you, you are welcome to unsub. EVE has become a marketing driven game, and if you don't N+1, you don't contribute to their marketing and are thus disposable.


Small structures have always been listed as personal items rather than corp. They exist, they are called mobile depot and other such things. Mediums are pretty affordable even for individuals in a personal corp, they just aren't hugely defendable if somebody decides to attack them. Then again neither are larges unless you have a fleet to back you up.
Lustig Allas-Rui
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2017-03-24 12:49:48 UTC
The Dev blog says that existing refining Rigs will be removed.

Where will they end up? I'm particularly asking regarding opportunities of theft in badly managed corps.
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#385 - 2017-03-24 12:55:09 UTC
How about Fracking barren moons to generate ordinary ore anoms?
Tribal Trogdor
Doomheim
#386 - 2017-03-24 12:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tribal Trogdor
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.


Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.


Please do something with this as you release the refineries. Value of towers and their fittings used on rxn towers is going to tank as people swap their massive rxn chains out for these new structures. People will either have to get out of the tower game early to avoid massive investment value loss, or end up getting very little back if they don't. Either way it would screw with the T2 market as they either exit, or can't reinvest into the new structures when they come out.
Sean Jester
Il Sindacato
Ligma Grindset
#387 - 2017-03-24 13:05:07 UTC
Maybe giving Deep Core strip miners an added role could fit better with their everyday usage. Like, level 4 needed.

After all, we only need them for the mercoxit roid, which is... I don't know... limiting?

Maybe 1 type of dedicated crystals for all the moon resources, or a dedicated set of crystals too, like for the rest of roids.

Just my 2 cents.
Avatoo Lorr
Coiled Spring Inc
Goonswarm Federation
#388 - 2017-03-24 13:10:54 UTC
Will the mining of the moon goo count towards a systems industrial ADM seeing as it is now going to be an active endeavour?
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#389 - 2017-03-24 13:23:57 UTC
Quote:
Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.



This expansion is a pretty good chance for a couple of interesting additions:

1) Deep core mining skill and deep core miners to gain another use
2) A 3rd t2 mining frigate that specializes in moon goo (can fit covert ops cloak for ninja bridging purposes)
3) Moon goo rigs for exhumers & barges


To be honest I don't care if the same ships & equipment is used or not, I'm just throwing it out there that this is a chance to further specialize moon goo mining.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#390 - 2017-03-24 13:25:08 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Rowells wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:
Moon mining is not passive.

So when you warp away or log off for the night, the moon harvester turns off? Income generation halts?


pretty much similar to market orders not hiding when you log off, industry jobs don't pause, sp farming doesnt pause when you are offline, if it was a true passive income then isk would just go straight into the wallet without any work after the initial setup.


Splitting hairs. Don't be willfully obtuse.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2017-03-24 13:26:09 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:

Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.


We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'


Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing.

Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things.


The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'


I tend to agree with your view. I simply hate the aids that short vulns have provided and railed against this prior to cits launching. I feel like CCP got the balance completely backwards and Keeps shoulda had Medium vuln windows and Mediums the Keeps.

CCP rebalancing windows to favor larger structures and generally a bit larger vuln times would be a good thing.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Aleverette
Bag ol' Dciks
#392 - 2017-03-24 13:35:40 UTC
So... RIP lowsec and NPC nullsec moon mining?

These changes would seriously decrease t2 material outcome.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#393 - 2017-03-24 13:38:10 UTC
Aleverette wrote:
So... RIP lowsec and NPC nullsec moon mining?

These changes would seriously decrease t2 material outcome.



We don't know what the new output will be. Based on what we saw with the initial Rorq buff, do you honestly believe the new moon goo drop rate will be significantly lower than current levels? Especially since Rorqs can mine the new moon goo?
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2017-03-24 13:39:05 UTC
In response to the Q&A from Fozzie (thanks fo answering questions btw)
How will siphons be reimbursed? (I'm assuming this will be happening.)
I'm asking because i want to know if i should be using up the stack i have right now or wait for them to be phased out.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#395 - 2017-03-24 13:49:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.


Since moon mining, especially the R64 side of things, is pretty much the highest tier of mining available, I think it should have at least some specialization. Doesn't need different skills for every single ore type (that would be a long long list). But maybe split it up according to the moon's quality (R4, R8, R16, R32 and R64). The five tiers would fit perfectly in a single skill.


  • Moon Harvesting - Ability to harvest resources from moon deposits. Level 1 unlocks a moon mining laser and the crystal for R4 moons. Each subsequent level unlocks an additional crystal for each type of moon goo, with level 5 being required for R64.
  • Advanced Material Reprocessing - Ability to reprocess mined moon ore, similar to existing reprocessing skills.
  • Moon Mining Drone Operation - Ability to use special moon mining drones, similar to existing drones.
  • Moon Mining Drone Specialization - Unlocks Moon Mining Excavator drones, similar to existing excavators.


And of course all the skills related to reactions and stuff.
Having a separate set of modules for moon mining keeps it nice and clean, and gives it a natural progression. Not to mention it will be easier to balance the T2 economy from a development point of view, should that become necessary.

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#396 - 2017-03-24 13:49:07 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Quote:
Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.



This expansion is a pretty good chance for a couple of interesting additions:

1) Deep core mining skill and deep core miners to gain another use
2) A 3rd t2 mining frigate that specializes in moon goo (can fit covert ops cloak for ninja bridging purposes)
3) Moon goo rigs for exhumers & barges


To be honest I don't care if the same ships & equipment is used or not, I'm just throwing it out there that this is a chance to further specialize moon goo mining.


Do you really want to limit newer players from taking part in moon mining by requiring deep core miners. Now if you want to limit specialty crystals to deep core miners I am ok with that.
ZeRonin
Deutsche Vulkan
Nuesschenkartell.
#397 - 2017-03-24 13:55:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.


Let's make them an intel tool instead.

If placed near a refinery, they give a more or less precise time of the moon goo explosion,
so you can form a fleet and try to get a bit of the cake.
Meta ones are harder to scan and/or more precise with the explosion time.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#398 - 2017-03-24 14:01:26 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:


Do you really want to limit newer players from taking part in moon mining by requiring deep core miners. Now if you want to limit specialty crystals to deep core miners I am ok with that.


Deep core mining doesn't take that long to skill into, and the release is far enough away that you can get it before it goes live. Don't be lazy.

TigerXtrm wrote:
Moon Harvesting - Ability to harvest resources from moon deposits. Level 1 unlocks a moon mining laser and the crystal for R4 moons. Each subsequent level unlocks an additional crystal for each type of moon goo, with level 5 being required for R64.
Advanced Material Reprocessing - Ability to reprocess mined moon ore, similar to existing reprocessing skills.


I completely agree with a new reprocessing skill. We have one for ore and ice. It would be more consistent to have one for the new rocks as well.
Pleasure Hub Node-514
Pleasure Hub Hotline
#399 - 2017-03-24 14:06:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.


T3 Gasses? Dedicated drug moons. I do like the sound of that. It'd be fantastic for ninja venture fleets.

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Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#400 - 2017-03-24 15:12:28 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
[quote=Fredric Wolf]

Do you really want to limit newer players from taking part in moon mining by requiring deep core miners. Now if you want to limit specialty crystals to deep core miners I am ok with that.


Deep core mining doesn't take that long to skill into, and the release is far enough away that you can get it before it goes live. Don't be lazy.

First off I already have the skill don't attack me because you can't be bothered to look and see that alpha clones do not have deep core mining on their skill tree. How about you not being lazy with your quick attacks