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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

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Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#361 - 2017-03-24 02:37:44 UTC
I would rather invest the isk in refineries for each reaction even i they cost 3x as much as a large faction pos....
unless the rigs are disgusting

But as a general proposition, I'd pay or the refineries because I can scale up to 20 or 30 reactions on one toon.

Each morning I warp to all my towers and collect my reactions. It's the high point of my day unless we go on a roam and I fall bass ackward into a nice kill.

Right after collecting my reactions I start cycling through PI alts necesary to ffuel the towers. Log in, log out, in, out, in, out.. my smile fades and I hate my eve life.

I mean, it's a little more exciting t multi box industry... trying to time all your component builds to end at the same time on each toon so u can move on to ships, but even that gets old.

Now I think about having to cycle through at least 3 alts simply to run reactions and I'm really in a funk.

With POS on moons that have to be fueled, filled, emptied, onlined, offlined, all that... you're pretty much committed to developing a plan and running it or at least a week. 8.3 days in my case. In that time, prices fluctuate wildy.

Maybe now my mid level reactions are so valuable I rush them to hs. Maybe they tanked hard and I'm best off stashing it away as an input in a future reaction or saving for a t2 build.

Once reactions are moved into the standard industry interface, that all goes away. If I want to build an ishtar, instead of maximizing profit by building my own components, I automatically am going to go all the way back to buying base moon mats and running reaction one, reaction two, components, ships.

You'll buy the precise amounts spreadsheet says you need and the production process becomes far more tedious. Not more interesting, more complex, more risky... just flat out redundant.

So, for basic t2 production, you're running invention slots, copy slots, industry slots, and now refining slots? All for mods that under-perform faction built out of tritanium?

If there's a compelling reason to put reaction runners out of business, I'm all ears... seriously. I just hate to see a cool niche profession flushed for no compelling reason. I don't have expertise in drug manu, but I suspect that becomes a station spinning job farmed to alts now as well.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#362 - 2017-03-24 02:42:55 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
I would rather invest the isk in refineries for each reaction even i they cost 3x as much as a large faction pos....
unless the rigs are disgusting

But as a general proposition, I'd pay or the refineries because I can scale up to 20 or 30 reactions on one toon.

Each morning I warp to all my towers and collect my reactions. It's the high point of my day unless we go on a roam and I fall bass ackward into a nice kill.

Right after collecting my reactions I start cycling through PI alts necesary to ffuel the towers. Log in, log out, in, out, in, out.. my smile fades and I hate my eve life.

I mean, it's a little more exciting t multi box industry... trying to time all your component builds to end at the same time on each toon so u can move on to ships, but even that gets old.

Now I think about having to cycle through at least 3 alts simply to run reactions and I'm really in a funk.

With POS on moons that have to be fueled, filled, emptied, onlined, offlined, all that... you're pretty much committed to developing a plan and running it or at least a week. 8.3 days in my case. In that time, prices fluctuate wildy.

Maybe now my mid level reactions are so valuable I rush them to hs. Maybe they tanked hard and I'm best off stashing it away as an input in a future reaction or saving for a t2 build.

Once reactions are moved into the standard industry interface, that all goes away. If I want to build an ishtar, instead of maximizing profit by building my own components, I automatically am going to go all the way back to buying base moon mats and running reaction one, reaction two, components, ships.

You'll buy the precise amounts spreadsheet says you need and the production process becomes far more tedious. Not more interesting, more complex, more risky... just flat out redundant.

So, for basic t2 production, you're running invention slots, copy slots, industry slots, and now refining slots? All for mods that under-perform faction built out of tritanium?

If there's a compelling reason to put reaction runners out of business, I'm all ears... seriously. I just hate to see a cool niche profession flushed for no compelling reason. I don't have expertise in drug manu, but I suspect that becomes a station spinning job farmed to alts now as well.


Man, you are a monument to objectively incorrect Eve playing. "High point of my day." Amazing.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2017-03-24 03:41:36 UTC
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#364 - 2017-03-24 08:30:54 UTC
Rena'Thras wrote:
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.


Yes, that's the intention.
Layla
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#365 - 2017-03-24 09:32:04 UTC
I’ve been in this game continuously since the beginning and have spent a LOT of time doing moon mining and reactions. I’m currently the manager of a sizeable moon mining and reaction operation in null sec. These are my comments:

1. Dynamic moons that run out of materials slowly would be good for the game. The current moons are too static. A new role for explorers is available here.

2. The idea of pulling a chunk of the moon towards the drilling platform to create a mineable debris field sounds great. Visually exciting.

3. The idea that this field then needs to be mined in a conventional way with mining barges, etc I am not so happy with. Null-sec alliances have widely spread moon mining operations at present. Moving mining fleets around from one moon to another is not going to be practical. The idea only works if you think that corps/alliances only have a very few moons. Null-sec alliances have dozens of moons.

4. In my experience there is a broad separation between mainly pvp players and miners. You won’t get many pvpers into mining barges. They will hate it. But most of the null sec moons feed the coffers of pvp alliances to allow them to make war, which creates the demand for industry.

5. I would suggest that you need to have some middle ground to allow corps that own moons to have an ability to continue to manage moons with relatively few personnel.

6. May I suggest the use of mining drones launched from the drilling platforms and controlled by a player to mine the debris fields. This operation would yield lower resources than a full-on mining barge fleet. Drones could be attacked in the usual ways and use of area-based weapons from the drilling platforms would also affect/destroy said mining drones.

7. May I also suggest that the yields from the moon debris fields are varied in content, much like conventional asteroid belts. Currently each moon usually has only one, maybe two, useful products. Each moon debris field would have multiple resource asteroids in varying quantities. So a moon might primarily yield asteroids containing hafnium, but with a mixture of other asteroids in the debris field yielding other moon goo in much smaller quantities.

8. May I also suggest that the distribution of moon goo throughout the universe is spread more evenly, especially the regional moon goos, such as titanium, cobalt, tungsten, etc. Null-sec alliances shouldn’t have to go to empire to be able to produce their ships. They should be able to have the resources in null sec to operate almost independent of hisec.

I am looking forward to these exciting changes and ready to adapt our operations to them.
I hope you will consider these suggestions.
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#366 - 2017-03-24 09:44:04 UTC
Layla wrote:

...


Good post.

Now is that a POS bleating I here?
Blossom Rivers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2017-03-24 09:49:26 UTC
Argument against Mining Ledger

The owner already knows when the goo is going to come out of orbit. They already have an advantage of controlling when it'll be ready and its size, they have a refinery to back them up in a fight, and the home-ground advantage.

Owners of refineries should be made aware of what has happened (missing ore), but they should send a scout in to determine, how many (numbers = very important!!!), and exactly who is doing it to set up a counter initiative, and not be given valuable intel on a silver platter for free with no active game-play involved. They should be putting a scout in the system or have a spy to gather intel.

There should NOT be a mechanism in game for tracking non-friendly players, we ousted that system through the contact management change were players can no longer be notified of a non-friendly player coming online, let’s not bring that back with the mining ledger, i.e. tracking specific non-friendly players and corporations locations and actions at no cost/effort.

The ledger is obviously an idea brought about by a relatively few players who run mega alliances who want to have absolute control over tech 2 resources and deny the majority of players access to these resources, rather than compete for them in an ongoing manner that gives others a fighting chance.

I thought the idea behind these structures was to turn refineries into an area where players can actively compete for resources. But if you going to just hand everything to the refinery owner on a silver platter anyway + free intel and all, what’s the point?
Blossom Rivers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2017-03-24 10:06:18 UTC
Arguments on location of moon ore field

Owner alliances shouldn't be able to solely rely on the weapons of the Refinery to remove the enemy from the field. Moon goo should spawn literally just within range of the refineries weapons, or on the border (part-in part-out of range), so that owner players can't just rely on the station to blow up enemy ships. The owners should have the advantage of retreating back closer to the refinery if needed for refinery support (within weapon range), but would have to have PVP ships to actually remove an enemy threat/mining force permanently.

That way an enemy mining fleet can sit just outside the refineries weapon range and mine a good portion of the ores if no-one is active in the system (active siphoning of enemy resources).

If an enemy decides to bring sniper PVP fit ships they can deny the owner its resource by firing on the owners mining ships and still stay outside of the refineries weapon range, attempting to tackle though would bring them in weapon range, of course the owner can do exactly the same, but has the safety net of being of being located within weapon range of the refinery so are relatively free to warp back to the refinery, tether, heal up and return to the fight, but that’s the advantage of owning the refinery isn't it.

If an enemy does decide to chase they will be in range of the refineries defences which will act as a strong deterrent. Command destroyers and MJD's could become an extremely useful tool in these types of engagements, and should create for some really interesting fights. Why? Because nothing should be entirely safe, this is EVE, nothing is safe! A Refinery should not be an 'I win' button when it comes to Moon goo, the convenience of storage/hangers/fitting/reactions, etc. and defence within reason is enough of an advantage.

Give the small corporations a fighting chance at least. (Imagining small gang of prospects ninja mining a large alliances moon goo = instant content). Surely the Mega Alliances have hogged these resources to themselves for long enough, give the smaller corporations a chance at turning a profit from this resource as well.

Yes the Large alliances can come with their capitals and blast away someone else's refinery to put their own up, but it’s about time they get actively involved in these systems both in terms of resource gathering and small scale PVP. Not only do large alliances have to win a system, but they have to be actively involved in that system. You can use your capitals to 'win' space, but you also have to be actively involved in the space you own.

Many large alliances are using their large capital fleets to take more than their fair share of space, just because smaller corporations don't have capitals shouldn't exclude them from low/null, they should still be able to be active from an industry perspective, as well as a PVP perspective. This model lets them do that, it also limits mega alliance from taking more systems than they can actually actively use just so they can put up moon drills.

This would definitely be a step towards helping smaller corporations get involved by giving ‘a fighting chance’ at competing for these resources.
Salvos Rhoska
#369 - 2017-03-24 10:44:17 UTC
Little guy gets kicked in the nads again.

Reverse-Malcanis' Law in effect.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#370 - 2017-03-24 10:53:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Little guy gets kicked in the nads again.

Reverse-Malcanis' Law in effect.


Well, duh - EVE is real.
Gary 0ldman
Doomheim
#371 - 2017-03-24 10:57:38 UTC
This is the best change in a long time! Power to the carebears! Cool

Personally I'd like to have this availeble in wh space too.

The people I see complaining here, is the guys that are controlling the moongoo. Pirate
Pretentious Knob
Silhouette Services
#372 - 2017-03-24 10:59:43 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
I see internal diplomatic incidents waiting to happen. Once mined, there's no way to force someone to pay you a fee. This literally is asking for drama, and not the good kind, but the players/corps being kicked from their alliances kind due to the actions of the few kind.


First, might I suggest causing the structure to put a "barrier" along the belt which when crossed will warn that a % fee based on the value will be deducted from the player's wallet (based on the owner's settings) at the end of every cycle. If they can't pay the fee the cycle fails and that's that.
Allow this to be bypassed by a new form of the "siphon" units which allow entry undetected of the anchoring player. Entries show within the mining log as "unknown" but still have it log the stolen goods. These new deployables should be 1 shot deals which cannot be picked up and last for their duration maybe an hour, up to a day.


Last point, simply due to the number of moons in existence, and the unknown size of the belts created (I'd assume along the lines of what we see in a small belt anomaly, this could take a lot of time even if you stagger them. The task of mining the materials will be daunting. Perhaps consider allowing the structures to still passively mine the material over the 1-2 week cycle that it takes for the next rock to be hauled up. That way once the new rock is there, the previous one has been cleared.

This also allows for a constant amount of materials to continue to enter the market, but allows for players to speed up the process without actually effecting volume.



Thankyou for your suggestion but please no. I feel that the process of mining will be a pain in the butt anyway but having to deploy a structure to hide you or not pay tax is just not a good idea. Ultimately it should be a free for all. If Corps/Alliance dont want to have the ore stolen, then log in and keep eyes on it.

I would like to expand on your idea of the ore being mined passively, maybe give the refinery the ability to deploy drones to grab the ore. They can be set for auto cycle where they just stay in space collecting the ore, but can be destroyed by other players which will then send a notification that there something going on.
Pretentious Knob
Silhouette Services
#373 - 2017-03-24 11:19:49 UTC
Rainus Max wrote:
Please for the love of god dont keep the current distribution of moon goo - there are areas of space that are so lacking and the weird distribution of certain elements is daft.

I'd suggest starting from scratch:

Give each moon a bit of everything but so that everyone has the ability to get the high end goo that currently is so heavily controlled by the big alliances.

Not saying massive screw up the ballancing but say if a belt gives you 1,000,000 units of goo once refined you get:

Atmospheric Gases x 200,000
Evaporate Deposits x 200,000
Hydrocarbons x 200,000
Silicates x 200,000
Cobalt x 25,000
Scandium x 25,000
Titanium x 25,000
Tungsten x 25,000
Cadmium x 15,000
Vandium x 15,000
Platinum x 15,000
Chromium x 15,000
Caesium x 7,500
Technetium x 7,500
Hafnium x 7,500
Mercury x 7,500
Promethium x 2,500
Dysprosium x 2,500
Neodymium x 2,500
Thulium x 2,500

you can then play with individual moons so a current Dyspro moon could give 25,000 per belt.

its a rough idea I grant you but please dont leave goo like it is now



OMG yes, can someone please give this man a spot on the CSM. This idea allows everyone to get involved and get their hands on this moon goo/ore without it being monopolised by the big boys/girls. I think it has been mentioned that the spread of the different ore can be expanded where if there is a primary item then the numbers can be adjusted accordingly.

Well done, thinking of all the playing group and not just one side.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#374 - 2017-03-24 11:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.

Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today (including Rorquals).

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.
For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#375 - 2017-03-24 11:52:26 UTC
Fozzie what happens to the mining jobs on the First and 2nd reinforcement timers respectively?
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#376 - 2017-03-24 11:54:59 UTC
I'm all for a new type of mining laser/drones + skills for these new type of rocks. Additional character depth/choices along with the opening of new markets for those modules is a good thing.
Pretentious Knob
Silhouette Services
#377 - 2017-03-24 12:02:55 UTC
Have had a quick review of the comments and think this is heading in the right direction to break things up.

1. Have all types of moon goo available on moons but just at various levels depending on the moons (pre patch)

2. I think all moons in EVE Universe should have some sort of goo that can be mined.

3. By making this a active process it will help reduce big alliances/corporations from having a monopoly. Can you imagine mining ops all over New Eden. Means groups will have to be corordinated, and I do think it will give the small group a chance to get in the action.

4. Great news about keeping current ships mining. I don't think we need special lasers. Moons where made out of asteroids banging into each other.

5. However long the cycle is for the chunk to be extracted and broken down in minable asteroids, can I suggest that if not mined the ore stays in space. So after first week (if weekly cycle) there is ore floating around the Refinery, if not mined second week makes this field bigger, third week even bigger, then fourth week is added but the first weeks worth of ore starts to disappear. Can you imagine warping to a refinery and seeing this massive ore field around the structure that is just waiting to be harvest. That would be exciting.

6. To assist with the passive income (but not to much) have drones that can be deployed from the structure to slowly mine away the chunks of ore. These field will get done quicker if players join in.

7. Please do not introduce a system that notifies the corp who has beens tealling their ore. Maybe they get to know how much is missing but they should have eyes to catch the dirty thief.

You are making this a active mechanic to collect the stuff, so make sure it is an active mechanic to find out who is taking your moon goo/ore.

Looking forward to the direction this might go and how it affects EVE.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#378 - 2017-03-24 12:07:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.


I probably should just come to expect this, but I'm quite happy to see attention continuing to be paid in regards to capital docking. This is a great compromise.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#379 - 2017-03-24 12:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
I agree with some of the points the above.

All moons should be mine-able: remove moons that can't be as you don't need them for POS' anymore. There's too many moons and it's a waste to try and search/scan through them all.

Agree with having all types of goo available on all moons in varying amounts. Just like an asteroid belt has all sorts of different rocks. You extract your big disk, drill it, and out comes a litany of different goo types. The benefits to this is that even small corps/alliances in crap space will have some decent income potential, rather than needing that rare dyspro moon to make big profit. The moons could produce different size rocks based on the size of moon/etc. Also helps solve the problem of moons that don't even cover the cost of fuel because their goo isn't valuable.
mkint
#380 - 2017-03-24 12:20:32 UTC
Rena'Thras wrote:
I'll ask the same for this that I've asked all along with all the Upwell Structures:

WHEN WILL THERE BE A SMALL SIZE?

.

It was mentioned earlier by some people, but this means people that run small POSes now or smaller Corporations or industrial players now have to join a big Corp or Alliance in order to do this stuff. Right now, you can drop a small POS in Lowsec as an individual or small Corporation and work into the moon mining game, as well as dropping a small POS in Highsec if you want your own personal refining station.

After this change, you're going from a 150M investment into a several billion ISK facility, something like a 10-100x increase in cost for people, yeah?

I've always liked the idea of smaller groups being able to do things, and I love personal deployable structures, so I feel like there should be SMALL structures added to the Upwell lines. The fact that this is going to essentially phase out SMALL POSes, yet there is no SMALL version, I find very strange and not really defensible as a position unless the goal of EVE is to tell small groups or individual players that they aren't welcome in it.

Surely that isn't the intention...?

One can make the argument for Citadels not having a small size due to their nature. Engineering complexes the argument isn't as good, but it might still hold some water. But as we get more and more structures and get closer and closer to removing POSes from the game, CCP, you guys really need to look at throwing a bone to small corps and players that need smaller, cheaper, and more manageable facilities for their needs.

CCP has made it crystal clear that small groups are no longer welcome in EVE. If that bothers you, you are welcome to unsub. EVE has become a marketing driven game, and if you don't N+1, you don't contribute to their marketing and are thus disposable.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.