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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#281 - 2017-03-23 15:06:53 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:
may anyone explain the term N+1 to a no-math guy?


Strength in numbers. What I can do with an amount of people, I can do better with that many people plus one. More miner will in theory enable you to mine more moons since actual man-hours will be needed to mine them now.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2017-03-23 15:08:00 UTC
SIEGE RED wrote:
Querns wrote:
h4kun4 wrote:

It might kill SRP, especially of smaller entities or Lowsec entities. - Buff to large nullsec Alliances
It might render Lowsec mooning pointless because seriously - who mines in Lowsec? - Buff to large nullsec alliances


Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now, in anticipation of this change. The signs have been there for years; you just have to think a little further out from where your next Level 5 mission or travelling supercap gank comes from.

From all the apoplectic posting here and from without, it seems like lowsec entities have the adaptability of my last bowel movement.


It raises an interesting set of questions. Adaptation and innovation are always a necessity - but is it healthy if every player dynamic falls within the same guiding paths and ends up adopting the same kind of organisational model. I'm not so sure whether the underlying issue with the low sec people's responses is the passive isk dependancy, there may very well be much more to it in terms of having to become something they never wanted to be. Deliberately so. Granted, this too is a topic of adapting to changes, but it is also a topic of niche gameplay and connected choices.


People usually deny "right" of high-sec afk miners to do their "niche" gameplay and force them to be more active and fit more tank, etc.... I think the same rule applies to anyone.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Sigras
Conglomo
#283 - 2017-03-23 15:11:09 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
There are only so many miners in this game and PvPers aren't going to start training for barges so they can have moon income. This means that for every miner that moves away from Ore mining, the amount available will reduce driving up the cost of the ore. This will have a knock on effect to ships which will become more expensive, potentially reducing the amount of PvP undertaken by players.

Furthermore, I doubt that even the largest alliances in Eve have the personnel to mine belts 24/7 without a break as they are mined now by the automated process, therefore there will be less moon goo available. Less moon goo means more expensive goo, which in turn means more expensive ships again.

You're basing this off of what? They haven't even hinted at the m^3 these new rocks are going to be, only that the ISK/m^3 will be better than ABCs

Considering right now Arkonor brings in 312.5 ISK/m^3 that means dysprosium must come in at a minimum rate of 1 unit per 224 m^3

This means that to equal a moon in the worst case scenario its just under 92 hulk hours per month. I would say a far more reasonable comparison would be a more mid range moon goo like Tech which works out to be just under 16 hulk hours a month to equal a moon, and that's if you just want to break even.

considering the developers can fine tune this ad infinum, I'm not too worried.
Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2017-03-23 15:15:19 UTC
WitcherW wrote:
This is GREAT thing! Now more peole now can participate in this new industry work and it is NOT just for big aliances privileges !
Old moon milking way just for big aliances is rly suck ,you get pasive mony - buy ship - go kill some people -and if you lose ship...who care you get new for "free" .
Now you need to work if you want something like all normal people and not looking to that mony falls from the sky(in in this case from moon Big smile)
GJ CCP just keep going!


yes... IF CCP will continue work in this spirit eve will be grate again in no time, and fun too.
but why we had wait so long for this... they realy have tones of posts to remake moon mining for this all years.
realy CCP 100 laches for all your members - now you do what you should have done 6 years ago.
Sigras
Conglomo
#285 - 2017-03-23 15:18:10 UTC
Bill Lane wrote:
RIP pure PVP alliances who rely on some passive income. This change literally makes a mining division a requirement for every alliance.

On the plus side, refining. Cool.

Oh and literally these will be priced in the range of citadels/ECs? So all of the POSes from 145 mill for the small tower moon miners to the billion isk large towers, you're telling me EVERY small tower will need to be replaced by something that costs more than a billion isk. Straight up screwing the small guys, and straight up screwing alliances with no mining groups aren't we CCP? For the record my alliance CAN afford it and DOES have a large mining division, so we're not too worried.

What does concern me is how I, as the alliance CEO, will need to start taxing the hell out of everyone to make sure the alliance is making money. We didn't charge corp fees, paid good money for ore buyback, all that. This was by FAR the main income for us so I could pay SRP, give people good money for ores/salvage, etc. And we really aren't putting very much in the alliance wallet. We're not broke, but we're not rich by far.

Honestly taxing the hell out of everybody sounds like a terrible idea. Guess corp fees are being forced on us now, along with awesome taxes. Come on now, this is really the best we could come up with?

What the crap were you doing wrong that you were moon mining with small towers? Pretty much everyone mines with large towers for 3 reasons.

1. Profit - if your moons arent super profitable, you want to use as few of them as possible, and do all of the extracting/reacting in one place.
2. Defense - If your moons are super profitable, you want a large tower there to protect them.
3. Practicality - POSs are cancer, and the fewer of them people have to deal with generally the happier they are.
sgtdale
WE Hate Corporations
#286 - 2017-03-23 15:23:07 UTC
Malcolm Erkkinen wrote:
So another nail in the coffin of small miners / manufacturers? Surely this means players will need to join a large Corp or get into another line of business.



or just quit the game Lol
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2017-03-23 15:32:00 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:
Querns wrote:


Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now.


Well you can talk easy with 20k Chars in alliance and enough dronelike people who can bear mining ops for hours but i left nullsec because of that.
Mindnumbing Boredom while (not) making isk and Aegis Sov. But that were the Saranen times in early summer...
Also, how much ISK in reserves does your alliance have? something between +1t and +10t?


This comment is pretty telling, because the underlying assumption here is that moongoo = SRP. This is incorrect; income = SRP. Moongoo is only one form of income. It's certainly the easiest from an administrative point of view (especially if you're like 99% of non-GSF moonhavers and are terrible at the market,) but it's only one form.

You can fund an alliance without gangpressing folks into mining. We're certainly not going to gangpress anyone into mining the stuff that comes out of refineries. Heck, I'm not even 100% sure if we're going to erect any in our space.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#288 - 2017-03-23 15:34:58 UTC
Edek Hawker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Edek Hawker wrote:

If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)


Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.


Oh? So the refinery will NOT be using fuel blocks *sarcasm
Please try again goon...


Sure.

Since reactions are a RAM activity, a single facility can perform a number of reactions approaching infinity. (Cost index goes here.) Because of this, you don't need to erect a tower for each gas reaction (or pair,) you just need one. This drastically reduces the fuel cost of running any kind of reaction, be it WH gas or otherwise.

To keep the use of ice from plummeting, all reactions must include some ice usage.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#289 - 2017-03-23 15:36:24 UTC
Seeing the tears from the entrenched alliances tells me that CCP is on the right track with this.

Mr Epeen Cool
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#290 - 2017-03-23 16:00:04 UTC
I don't like it.

It's not realistic.

Why is Saudi Arabia better off than Yemen?

It has massive passive income. Every two weeks, they don't mobilize their entire population with buckets to go bail the oil into barges. That's stupid. If it had to be bailed into barges, this tedious, dangerous, and thankless work would be done by Yemeni's granted a two day work visa.

Why did Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait and why did the west mobilize to stop him? Massive passive income, and the super-alliances mobilized to protect their investment.

The game is fun because it mimics real geo-politics.

You're saying that every oil field everywhere will have to be hand scooped to market. On it's face, that's just stupid. Now the resource has minimal value and the truly valuable commodity is cheap and/or forced labor.

As an >2 yo player, I'll remind you that these years spent grinding roids and havens have been the least enjoyable of my career, apart from the first few months when it all was new and exciting.

All this was done to reach the point I'm at now where I can react, build, and have the resources to support a corporation, contribute to the alliance, and actually begin to PLAY eve for content, pvp, political turf wars.

I'm not a moon miner. I'm a reactor and builder. If this nerf turns reacting into PI (requiring three alts and endless toon switching) you've ruined the game for me. Clearly, removing any meaningful barrier to entry into the reactions business will kill any volatility there, so there goes the viability of that vocation.

I know I can "win" the game plexing 6 accounts to multibox mine (ice, ore, or perhaps moon goo). I can "win" the game with 10 PI alts, a massive spreadsheet, and streamlined logistics. Neither of those are PLAYING the game though.

Playing the game is scraping together tens of billions in isk through hard work and cooperation and then hanging your whole investment out into lawless space and seeing if Saddam comes to take it away, and if your buddies will have your back.

Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#291 - 2017-03-23 16:03:09 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
A set of new Upwell Structures is in the works: Behold the Upwell Refineries!

Refineries will be the premiere structure for resource collection and processing. They have bonuses to reprocessing and the exclusive ability to fit moon mining and reaction service modules.This will give us completely new gameplay for moon mining and reactions, as well as linking into future resource collection gameplay.

Check out the exciting details in this blog Introducing Upwell Refineries


Posted this somewhere else but i'll put it here so you see it:

Quote:

This seems pretty easy right, heres a simple fix that makes this viable:

The entire time its dragging its chunk of moon up that it fracked off, its vulnerable. If you knock a miner into its final timer any fracking gravity drag move stops.



Look at me, I'm a ducking genius.


Single point conflict restored, moon mining is a bottom up process that its meant to be and we don't all have to **** around with AUTZ timer spam.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2017-03-23 16:03:55 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
I don't like it.

It's not realistic.


This is a video game.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

sgtdale
WE Hate Corporations
#293 - 2017-03-23 16:05:12 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
I see internal diplomatic incidents waiting to happen. Once mined, there's no way to force someone to pay you a fee. This literally is asking for drama, and not the good kind, but the players/corps being kicked from their alliances kind due to the actions of the few kind.


First, might I suggest causing the structure to put a "barrier" along the belt which when crossed will warn that a % fee based on the value will be deducted from the player's wallet (based on the owner's settings) at the end of every cycle. If they can't pay the fee the cycle fails and that's that.
Allow this to be bypassed by a new form of the "siphon" units which allow entry undetected of the anchoring player. Entries show within the mining log as "unknown" but still have it log the stolen goods. These new deployables should be 1 shot deals which cannot be picked up and last for their duration maybe an hour, up to a day.


Last point, simply due to the number of moons in existence, and the unknown size of the belts created (I'd assume along the lines of what we see in a small belt anomaly, this could take a lot of time even if you stagger them. The task of mining the materials will be daunting. Perhaps consider allowing the structures to still passively mine the material over the 1-2 week cycle that it takes for the next rock to be hauled up. That way once the new rock is there, the previous one has been cleared.

This also allows for a constant amount of materials to continue to enter the market, but allows for players to speed up the process without actually effecting volume.

Picking my pocket automagically would be fine if it also automagically gets my ganked mining ship and fit replaced out of the pocket of the owner of the moon fracking thing..........
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2017-03-23 16:06:14 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
A set of new Upwell Structures is in the works: Behold the Upwell Refineries!

Refineries will be the premiere structure for resource collection and processing. They have bonuses to reprocessing and the exclusive ability to fit moon mining and reaction service modules.This will give us completely new gameplay for moon mining and reactions, as well as linking into future resource collection gameplay.

Check out the exciting details in this blog Introducing Upwell Refineries


Posted this somewhere else but i'll put it here so you see it:

Quote:

This seems pretty easy right, heres a simple fix that makes this viable:

The entire time its dragging its chunk of moon up that it fracked off, its vulnerable. If you knock a miner into its final timer any fracking gravity drag move stops.



Look at me, I'm a ducking genius.


Single point conflict restored, moon mining is a bottom up process that its meant to be and we don't all have to **** around with AUTZ timer spam.



Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#295 - 2017-03-23 16:07:10 UTC
sgtdale wrote:

Picking my pocket automagically would be fine if it also automagically gets my ganked mining ship and fit replaced out of the pocket of the owner of the moon fracking thing..........


It can; most folks call it "SRP."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#296 - 2017-03-23 16:08:54 UTC
Well, ok, moongoo isnt the only source of income thats true, but its a major one, the problem with income in lowsec is that its simpy hard to get in masses like nullsec can.

Tax don't get you anywhere since you earn money with loot from people, plexes or with LP and not with bounties. Anomalies and sigs are spawning lucky and yield poor raw isk in lowsec. In null you can at least count on some income from Tax and maybe even renters. The two greatest ways of passive income are moonimining and reaction farms and both will be different, maybe reactionfarms on citadel will be wothwhile.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#297 - 2017-03-23 16:10:46 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:
Well, ok, moongoo isnt the only source of income thats true, but its a major one, the problem with income in lowsec is that its simpy hard to get in masses like nullsec can.

Tax don't get you anywhere since you earn money with loot from people, plexes or with LP and not with bounties. Anomalies and sigs are spawning lucky and yield poor raw isk in lowsec. In null you can at least count on some income from Tax and maybe even renters. The two greatest ways of passive income are moonimining and reaction farms and both will be different, maybe reactionfarms on citadel will be wothwhile.


It's almost like they're trying to get rid of passive income.

It's hilarious how bad you guys (read: the rest of eve) are at finance. It's not even complicated. The tiny possibility space you're putting out there is just :shobon: as all hell.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#298 - 2017-03-23 16:57:35 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
A set of new Upwell Structures is in the works: Behold the Upwell Refineries!

Refineries will be the premiere structure for resource collection and processing. They have bonuses to reprocessing and the exclusive ability to fit moon mining and reaction service modules.This will give us completely new gameplay for moon mining and reactions, as well as linking into future resource collection gameplay.

Check out the exciting details in this blog Introducing Upwell Refineries


Posted this somewhere else but i'll put it here so you see it:

Quote:

This seems pretty easy right, heres a simple fix that makes this viable:

The entire time its dragging its chunk of moon up that it fracked off, its vulnerable. If you knock a miner into its final timer any fracking gravity drag move stops.



Look at me, I'm a ducking genius.


Single point conflict restored, moon mining is a bottom up process that its meant to be and we don't all have to **** around with AUTZ timer spam.



Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.


We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#299 - 2017-03-23 17:11:54 UTC
I have a couple thoughts on this.

1. Make the m3 of the initial mined rocks sorta cumbersome so that moon material at least gets refined locally so moon goo stays within the group holding it.

2. reduce timers to 2 on medium structures.

3. Make it so when fracking moons structures have a larger vulnerability window. I do not like the idea of if it is fracking it is vulnerable but if there are short medium and large fracking options have this impact the window the structure is able to be attacked. small adds +2 hours to window med +4 large +6.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#300 - 2017-03-23 17:12:15 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:

Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.


We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'


Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing.

Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.