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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Grath Telkin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2017-03-23 17:28:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:

Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.


We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'


Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing.

Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things.


The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Arehm Bukandara
Khaprani Tribe
#302 - 2017-03-23 17:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Arehm Bukandara
Questions:

1.) What are the vulnerability times?
2.) What happens to the moon chunk if the refinery is destroyed while the chunk is still being pulled from the moon?
3.) Can the moon rocks be harvested with any mining laser? If so, will there be mining crystals for these rocks?
4.) Will the moon rocks need to be reprocessed? I'm guessing this is a "yes"
5.) Will there be more than one type of medium? Large?
6.) How many m3 are the rocks and what are their refining bases?
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#303 - 2017-03-23 17:34:55 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I have a couple thoughts on this.

1. Make the m3 of the initial mined rocks sorta cumbersome so that moon material at least gets refined locally so moon goo stays within the group holding it.

2. reduce timers to 2 on medium structures.

3. Make it so when fracking moons structures have a larger vulnerability window. I do not like the idea of if it is fracking it is vulnerable but if there are short medium and large fracking options have this impact the window the structure is able to be attacked. small adds +2 hours to window med +4 large +6.


Cumbersome M3 would be awesome if resources were distributed across all of New Eden, but the way it is now, it has to go to Jita... or at least you do to get the missing mats from any t2/reaction chain.

Then you're talking about full chain production in nul and low, some of which is done, but is not really the way it works atm.

I like the suggestion some have made that physically mining the moons w a mining fleet could speed up or increase yield, but that passive recovery continues in some form.

It depends what the mysterious goal is. If it's to eliminate passive income, I guess we'll see how many people want to pay for a game where u just sit there staring at a rock. Seems like an uphill climb for a recruiter imho.. lol.

If the goal is to encourage non-sov pvp and to force engagements, I've said, and have seen others say, why not just make the fracked chunk destroyable or create a mechanic where chunks can be stolen and set beside your cit on a blank moon that will refine it.

Then you have pvp engagements. My fleet is here to defend. Yours is coming to steal. Let's go. Instead of having to grind-mine, burn out of a bubble in a miner, warp to cit, reship, come back and fight. Or, we see a "stealing fleet" in the area in intel. Can we form up in time to stop you, or do you come destroy our chunk or steal a lot of it because we're not prepared.

Just the same mechanic is boring. You're entosising = your helpless, they come to kill helpless, maybe fight ensues.
You're mining with rorq mod active = helpless, they come to kill, maybe fight ensues
You're ratting in a slow align carrier or w bastion active = (close to) helpless, they come to kill, maybe fight ensues
You're mining your moon field at a set location and time w the bulk of your alliance forced into barges and exhumers = comparatively helpless until you reship

Let's skip the foreplay and get to the fight
Edek Hawker
POS Party
Ember Sands
#304 - 2017-03-23 17:42:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
Edek Hawker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Edek Hawker wrote:

If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)


Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.


Oh? So the refinery will NOT be using fuel blocks *sarcasm
Please try again goon...


Sure.

Since reactions are a RAM activity, a single facility can perform a number of reactions approaching infinity. (Cost index goes here.) Because of this, you don't need to erect a tower for each gas reaction (or pair,) you just need one. This drastically reduces the fuel cost of running any kind of reaction, be it WH gas or otherwise.

To keep the use of ice from plummeting, all reactions must include some ice usage.


I admit that I am not an economic expert I am more of a 2+2=4 kind of guy. The results of ice products price falling to my perspective means that either 1 of 2 things happen.
1) The price of T2/T3 products come down hopefully making the ships in particular closer to insurance payouts meaning more people can afford them easier meaning more are available to be blown up more often. I don't see this as a bad thing.
2) The price of T2/T3 products stays the same meaning the industrialist that make them make more profit allowing them to expand their operations which again I don't see as a bad thing.

This perspective does not include any projections on the amount of moon goo available for manufacturing from the new mining operations put forth in the Dev Blog I'm only speaking of the differences I see resulting from the inclusion of ice products in the reaction process.
Lonan O'Labhradha
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#305 - 2017-03-23 17:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lonan O'Labhradha
I think many doomsayers are being rather short sighted.

Ninja Mining/Siphoning:

You can't siphon from a tower now without letting the owner know who you are--the siphon has your name on it. Thus, when people siphon from a moon in nullsec (keep in mind that no one actually does this because we're all honest and upstanding citizens of the various factions and would never wish to steal resources from our neighbors), one uses a neutral alt so that the illicit activities do not impact the faction standings.

The same will be true for Ninja Mining under the CCP proposed system: You ninja mine moon goo with a neutral alt. If someone is there manning the tower, they shoot you. Just like if someone today is watching the tower and they see your siphon... Well, they take the goo out and blow it up.

The change is what you use to siphon. In the new system, you siphon with a ninja minng fleet probably composed of Prospects or perhaps some new ninja mining ship CCP comes up with that doesn't have a transponder and doesn't identify itself to the structure.

Passive/Active Mining:

The key piece that a lot of people are missing is that mining ships need to be used to gather goo under the new system. This means that Moon Goo becomes intertwined with Ice and Minerals as there are still the same number of miner labor hours in the population. If Goo collection starts taking half of your mining hours whereas before you split it between Ice and Minerals, and mineral production takes a bath with only 10% of your time, well then you produce fewer minerals in your population and they become more scarce--the price goes up and the price of goo comes down because everyone invested their work hours in goo.

Passive mining presently allows the large nullsec blocs to set up giant moon fields that make up some fraction of their income. Some large blocs may not use moon goo extensively for funding, but some do. Adding a labor component forces them to more directly administer their moon goo production. Renting a moon becomes harder because of ninja mining and it forces the bloc to have ships or personnel in the area to chase off ninja miners when the goo fields spawn.

Increasing the cost of goo towers also means there will be less of them and likely more diversity of minerals on moons to make mining them worthwhile. It is likely that instead of having single, rare moons that spawn R64/32 materials, that the extracted moon goo ore fields will simply feature rare asteroids or less rare asteroids that feature small or trace amounts of valuable minerals or a combination thereof.

The present labor cost of moon goo towers is not 0. People have been saying that it's "passive income", but as someone who has run towers before, this is far from the case. Running a tower requires a lot of time and they're not very forgiving when you want to be lazy--your silos fill up and goo is lost and fuel is still consumed, or worse, you run out of fuel and the stick goes dead leaving all your stuff open to looters. Fuel costs fluctuate and sometimes, espcecially in certain areas, fuel becomes difficult to access. Large towers require immense amounts of fuel and are almost required to do certain refining processes. They have to be maintained for a few hours per week to manage the fueling, extraction, and configuration of your reactions.

The towers that come close to "passive income" are really the R64s. You don't need reactions, just a tower and a periodic hauler to go and fetch the goo and fuel the POS. Only a select few large bullies typically have passive income at this level. Small corporations can't protect an R64 from a large bloc and it's difficult if not impossible to take a POS away from a bloc with supers and renters and pets to protect its interests.


If your reaction has non-local inputs, you have to buy those and ferry them usually from Jita out to the tower to complete your outputs. Using a Jump Freighter is the most efficient way to keep the tower set up, but flying jump freighters around costs fuel, too, and requires a lot of movement of cynos and in regions where you don't have a safe structure, you have to jump to space where you are vulnerable adding risk to labor.

Low sec Opportunities:


As I mentioned, instead of using haulers to move moon goo around, you now will use a miner. Obviously since you're sitting at a structure with infinite storage, you can just dump the mined goo into the extremely nearby structure and then probably compress it making it way easier to transport to hi sec or you can refine and react it just like you used to without having to set up elaborate Rube Goldberg machines by positioning little bits and bobs in a space bubble.

It's not like you were just sitting in your PvP ship watching your bank balance roll up... Someone was transporting and selling all of that stuff between all of those towers likely in a Deep Space Transport which is a giant pain in the ass. Now you don't have those haulers running around. You have a Miasmos picking minerals out of cans floating in space and occasionally depositing them in a structure within 350km instead of a station 8 jumps out.

Plus, now most or all of your goo is coming from just a few moons (one for smaller groups) instead of 20-50 moons scattered all over a region.

I'll bet that a group who's sitting high on the hog feeding off of a nice juicy R64 with no reactions to speak of feels a bit dejected, but you probably should... The balance of moon income is likely to spread out a bit more.

And if you still say that your hauler guy doesn't like mining, well, that's fine, too. Contract it out and then sit in your PvP ships while you hunt incoming poachers. Nothing attracts PvP like a defenseless mining fleet.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#306 - 2017-03-23 17:45:22 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I have a couple thoughts on this.

1. Make the m3 of the initial mined rocks sorta cumbersome so that moon material at least gets refined locally so moon goo stays within the group holding it.

2. reduce timers to 2 on medium structures.

3. Make it so when fracking moons structures have a larger vulnerability window. I do not like the idea of if it is fracking it is vulnerable but if there are short medium and large fracking options have this impact the window the structure is able to be attacked. small adds +2 hours to window med +4 large +6.


Cumbersome M3 would be awesome if resources were distributed across all of New Eden, but the way it is now, it has to go to Jita... or at least you do to get the missing mats from any t2/reaction chain.



Big m3 for the rocks but small for the refined product mean you are likely to refine tax the miner for corp/alliance income while still leaving the ability to use Hubs for distribution.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#307 - 2017-03-23 17:52:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Leo Augustus wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I have a couple thoughts on this.

1. Make the m3 of the initial mined rocks sorta cumbersome so that moon material at least gets refined locally so moon goo stays within the group holding it.

2. reduce timers to 2 on medium structures.

3. Make it so when fracking moons structures have a larger vulnerability window. I do not like the idea of if it is fracking it is vulnerable but if there are short medium and large fracking options have this impact the window the structure is able to be attacked. small adds +2 hours to window med +4 large +6.


Cumbersome M3 would be awesome if resources were distributed across all of New Eden, but the way it is now, it has to go to Jita... or at least you do to get the missing mats from any t2/reaction chain.



Big m3 for the rocks but small for the refined product mean you are likely to refine tax the miner for corp/alliance income while still leaving the ability to use Hubs for distribution.


That is what I meant to get across.

Thanks
Lonan O'Labhradha
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#308 - 2017-03-23 17:59:44 UTC
Continued...

RIP Small Corporations

Small corps likely rely on R16 and lower moons to get by which means you're probably reacting and have multiple POSes. I say this because R32/64 moons tend to be found and captured by larger entities because of their worth which means that if you're small and you're on an R64, someone is probably going to come by, scan your moon, find out it Dysprosium or Technetium on it and then drop dreads to blow up your POS and take it.

This means that you have probably already spent at least the price of a medium refinery on POSes to eke out a passable corporate income and you sit around worrying that your DST is going to get blown up as it travels between your POSes and your station and you'll be out either a bunch of money in lost fuel or in lost goo.

A refinery will likely produce a wider variety of goo and you'll be able to collect and react it at a station that's super safe for things like Jump Freighters to visit so your supply lines are better, but you have to fly a mining barge to collect minerals and someone might come ninja some if you're not careful (just like they can today).

This also provides a new type of pirate corp--Indy Pirates! Indy Pirates go out and ninja mine moon goo from unmanned refineries. You pop in, scoop up the juiciest morsels, and then slip out and all yeah, they got your license plate, but your corp either specializes in ninja mining--in which case you don't care if they don't like you, or you're in an NPC corp, and good luck getting an NPC corp to hold you accountable for "goo taxes".
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2017-03-23 18:03:46 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:

Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.

You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.


We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'


Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing.

Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things.


The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'


The structure will end up immune? I am pretty sure they'll have vulnerability timers, just like other Upwell structures.

"At an inconvenient time for you" isn't the same as "immune."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Advenat Bedala
Facehoof
#310 - 2017-03-23 18:23:52 UTC
Will Rorqual be able to mine moonmats?

*Please say no!*
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#311 - 2017-03-23 18:39:13 UTC
Advenat Bedala wrote:
Will Rorqual be able to mine moonmats?

*Please say no!*


The chances of this being the case are pretty slim. Why revamp the rorq at all if you don't let it be eligible for the new shiny?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

John Frohike
Eve Defence Force
DARKNESS.
#312 - 2017-03-23 19:21:06 UTC
Love this, a great excuse to dust off the Expedition Frigates and go raid me some moon goo!
Gaius Clabbacus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#313 - 2017-03-23 19:34:28 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'


Heartwarming to see that the mega-alliances still care for the little guy and are not just arguing for their self-interest.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#314 - 2017-03-23 19:36:38 UTC
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'


Heartwarming to see that the mega-alliances still care for the little guy and are not just arguing for their self-interest.


It is quite disingenuous to see him campaigning for a change that would let his alliance more easily destroy the infrastructure of a smaller alliance, isn't it?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#315 - 2017-03-23 19:46:12 UTC
1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.

2. The current system needs a change, but not because it was passive. It needs a change because it is too easy for the already rich and powerful to just sit on the same moons and almost impossible for any newer guys to enter this activity in EVE without being completely obliterated or forced into becoming the slave of some shitlord.

3. So many people are talking about the New Player Experience and they forget that it doesn't end with a set of missions after a day or two. The actual experience for many New Players is that EVE is in too many ways far too dominated by some established guys and that CCP provides game mechanics that support such lazy-ass dominance rather than making it uncertain for everyone and favoring the active and inventive. Moon Mining is currently one of such mechanics and from what I read so far about the new mechanics this will not change. The only way I could see a change to the better was if the moons holding minerals would constantly change and thereby really forcing people into a more active playstyle.

4. Now someone might argue: "EVE shouldn't feel safe", but this is exactly the phrase you will hear from people who already achieved relative safety: all their possible losses will be replaced within the hour and they don't know the feeling of uncertainty anymore. Make EVE unsafe again, for everyone, no matter how big their blop, no matter how much ISK they already have. That would be a good goal, that would provide for a world which is open enough for more New Players to stay around, because it doesn't have the smell of your grand-fathers old socks.



Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#316 - 2017-03-23 19:46:28 UTC
Arggghh...typed and lost whole response!

shortened version:

How are you going to make the physical immersion break of chunking off a moon repeatedly work?? Are all the moons going to turn to Swiss cheese or croissants?

Booster changes - excellent!

Please rebalance moon mins to be like asteroid mins so that we can build all that we want of T2 in null/WH with less access to that in high.

Last point: I agree with other posters.... I think pure PVP corps in low that rely on passive moon goo (small corps) are going to feel the nerf bat here. Also - bring this in some form to high and null (maybe anomalies) so that people can learn that side of industry.


Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2017-03-23 19:55:06 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.


The income is about as passive as it gets. If you have even a glimmer of ability to optimize things, you can avoid touching a moon miner for a month or more. The size of the income so generated doesn't make the income less passive. Nice try cherry picking a dumb example, by the way.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#318 - 2017-03-23 19:59:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:
1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.


The income is about as passive as it gets. If you have even a glimmer of ability to optimize things, you can avoid touching a moon miner for a month or more. The size of the income so generated doesn't make the income less passive. Nice try cherry picking a dumb example, by the way.


It is only a dumb example if you're speaking from the perspective of someone who is thinking in numbers of 20,40, 100 moons, because you have the possibilities to run as many. Touching it "once a month" doesn't make it more passive than undocking "once a month" to rat for 200M or mine for 200M with equal or less time involved.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#319 - 2017-03-23 20:05:32 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
Querns wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:
1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.


The income is about as passive as it gets. If you have even a glimmer of ability to optimize things, you can avoid touching a moon miner for a month or more. The size of the income so generated doesn't make the income less passive. Nice try cherry picking a dumb example, by the way.


It is only a dumb example if you're speaking from the perspective of someone who is thinking in numbers of 20,40, 100 moons, because you have the possibilities to run as many. Touching it "once a month" doesn't make it more passive than undocking "once a month" to rat for 200M or mine for 200M with equal or less time involved.


Again, you're cherry picking a low-value example to try and pretend like moon mining isn't passive. The passive or active nature of income is completely unrelated to the magnitude of income so generated.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Gaius Clabbacus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2017-03-23 20:09:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.

The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'


Heartwarming to see that the mega-alliances still care for the little guy and are not just arguing for their self-interest.


It is quite disingenuous to see him campaigning for a change that would let his alliance more easily destroy the infrastructure of a smaller alliance, isn't it?


It might actually make sense if the argument was for a structure at POCO price level and capabilities, while moving compression and reactions to Engineering complexes.