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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Edek Hawker
POS Party
Ember Sands
#261 - 2017-03-23 13:48:48 UTC
Sullen Decimus wrote:
Locke Beulve wrote:


Quote:
The existing reactions will be converted to new blueprints that enable the reaction process in the new system, and new reactions will include small amounts of ice products in each run to compensate for the lower number of starbase towers needed for advanced industry.


Whoaaaaaa there. Already ice products are required to be used to fuel these structures, which makes use of ice mats. There's no need to go overboard and make the fuel block prices skyrocket even more then they already are from shortages of Strontium. There is huge potential for these new structures, but lets not reinvent the wheel here.


This will be absolutely necessary. You can now essentially do ALL of your reactions in a single structure. Without this a huge portion of the isotope demand in the game would die as one of the single largest consumers of isotopes is reaction farms.


Why are we trying to keep the price of ice products artificially high? All of the new structures if fully fitted use more fuel blocks than the POS equivalent of them. If we finally get a structure that uses less fuel than the POS equivalent then its about time!
If you continue to insist that we need to keep the status quo on ice production then look to booster charges ice products had their buff there.
Last but not least
If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#262 - 2017-03-23 13:53:30 UTC
Edek Hawker wrote:

If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)


Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dark Eulogy
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2017-03-23 13:53:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Glad to be able to get this ball rolling and start bringing the community into the early process of developing these structures. We're releasing these blogs now so that we can focus Fanfest on listening to you folks. We also look forward to hearing from you all in this thread.



Hi CCP

I want to first say I think the Player Owned Structures have been great so far and I look forward to their next installment, and that I think these are progressing down a good road


However I want to talk about serious issue for a moment please, in relation to this post.... a dark issue


I see you look forward to Fan Fest Feedback and I think this is a great idea, however it has recently come to the attention of myself and others that a certain menacing force will be gathering at Fan fest, threatening those who disagree with them

It is even rumored that (some) of these menaces are 'legit ex cons'

I myself read that they will send players to the hospitals

Can you provide any guarantees that people who attend CCP events like Fan Fest are not threatened, accosted and end up in altercations with angry players who disagree with them

Thank you

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2017-03-23 13:58:28 UTC
Sassums wrote:
So if I am reading this correctly you are continuing to cater to the null sec folks while WH people receive no love.

T3 was our only production option in WH space that didnt require us to leave the WH to produce - with gas reaction BPO's requiring Ice products we will now either have to go out to HS to purchase said ice or roll until we find a shattered that has ice belts (that will almost always guarantee a gank)

T3 Production should continue to be a W-Space product and should not require K-Space components.

If this is changing then W-Space should be allowed to harvest resources from the moons of the systems we inhabit.

If not - remove the stupid ice requirement from T3 reactions.


care to elaborate how you can run gas reactions without pos fuel?
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#265 - 2017-03-23 13:59:43 UTC
Bill Lane wrote:
RIP pure PVP alliances who rely on some passive income. This change literally makes a mining division a requirement for every alliance.

On the plus side, refining. Cool.

Oh and literally these will be priced in the range of citadels/ECs? So all of the POSes from 145 mill for the small tower moon miners to the billion isk large towers, you're telling me EVERY small tower will need to be replaced by something that costs more than a billion isk. Straight up screwing the small guys, and straight up screwing alliances with no mining groups aren't we CCP? For the record my alliance CAN afford it and DOES have a large mining division, so we're not too worried.

What does concern me is how I, as the alliance CEO, will need to start taxing the hell out of everyone to make sure the alliance is making money. We didn't charge corp fees, paid good money for ore buyback, all that. This was by FAR the main income for us so I could pay SRP, give people good money for ores/salvage, etc. And we really aren't putting very much in the alliance wallet. We're not broke, but we're not rich by far.

Honestly taxing the hell out of everybody sounds like a terrible idea. Guess corp fees are being forced on us now, along with awesome taxes. Come on now, this is really the best we could come up with?


"booh!"... Players have to invest in a game to play it.
"booh!"... More activity in space is less content! Euhm?
"booh!"... Players have to invest non passive isk in their corp!

Are we playing the same EVE?


"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
DARKNESS.
#266 - 2017-03-23 14:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
The more I think about this the more complex this change is going to be, and one that could very well have lasting economic repercussions. It's not just some new content being added to the game, you're talking about a fundamental rebalancing of Eve's economy. This is not the sort of thing you rush into.

There are only so many miners in this game and PvPers aren't going to start training for barges so they can have moon income. This means that for every miner that moves away from Ore mining, the amount available will reduce driving up the cost of the ore. This will have a knock on effect to ships which will become more expensive, potentially reducing the amount of PvP undertaken by players.

Furthermore, I doubt that even the largest alliances in Eve have the personnel to mine belts 24/7 without a break as they are mined now by the automated process, therefore there will be less moon goo available. Less moon goo means more expensive goo, which in turn means more expensive ships again.

Couple all this with small Alliances and/or Corporations having to scrap their SRP programmes and you have more people focusing on making money and less on having fun. Less fun means less customers because no one's going to subscribe to play a second job.

I'm all for bottom up income but it needs to be introduced a incrementally over a much longer time scale than is being proposed here, with changes being made to other areas of the game first, not least making mining a more attractive pull to a potential new player, in order to increase the number of miners in the game so that there isn't a massive amount of money taken out of the system over night.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#267 - 2017-03-23 14:05:33 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:


Are we playing the same EVE?




Everybody plays his or her EVE Cool
Zanar Skwigelf
Wormhoppers Inc.
#268 - 2017-03-23 14:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanar Skwigelf
While I would prefer to see moons keep their current diversity & scarcity, I'm willing to bet 315 isk that the quality of the moon goo field is based on what type of moon laser pulled the rock in.

Standup M Moon Laser I > r4,8,16
Standup M Moon Laser II > r4, 8,16, 32
Standup L Moon Laser I > r4, 8,16, 32
Standup L Moon Laser II > r4, 8,16, 32, 64

This would be overall bad for null because of moon equality making different regions less necessary to fight over, but I think it would be significantly better for low sec because now any moon in any low sec system can give r 32 & 64 if you put down enough isk.


Also, if this is true, and a corp can put down 3-7 of these in a system to create daily mining opportunities for its members, then t2 production might finally break free from Jita, and local markets might be more prolific and less dependent on JF scheduling.
h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#269 - 2017-03-23 14:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: h4kun4
Querns wrote:


Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now.


Well you can talk easy with 20k Chars in alliance and enough dronelike people who can bear mining ops for hours but i left nullsec because of that.
Mindnumbing Boredom while (not) making isk and Aegis Sov. But that were the Saranen times in early summer...
Also, how much ISK in reserves does your alliance have? something between +1t and +10t?

I can also perfectly understand that Goons are the last entity to complain about a potential Buff to their playstyle. I've been part of old NC, CFC and Imperium for more than half my playtime (seven years) and if i still were a member i wouldn't mind that much because i would get my SRP, and my corp would do well financially, regardless of moonchanges.

But in Lowsec, we simply do not want to mine because thats why we are in lowsec and not in nullsec after all.

If we have no choice, we will surely adapt, but as long as there is room for improvement and change of Dev dcisions, at least i will be like CCPlease, change this and that so you don't ruin my experience of this game I'm paying you to play, for multiple accounts for more than seven years.

Its a valid thing to do.

Maybe, even it will not be that bad, since some kind of mining plattform was to be introduced, that mines a belt for you if i got that right...

Zanar Skwigelf wrote:

This would be overall bad for null because of moon equality making different regions less necessary to fight over, but I think it would be significantly better for low sec because now any moon in any low sec system can give r 32 & 64 if you put down enough isk.


May you explain how exactly tieing the quality of goo to the level of laser would impvoe Low and nerf null, because i dont get it?
mkint
#270 - 2017-03-23 14:52:00 UTC
Why do I get the feeling that this is going to be a huge mess? Even discounting the bad design philosophy, it feels like the rollout itself is just going to absolutely destroy the economy. Since this absolutely shuts down all moon production that is not done by mega-alliances, there will be mass shortages. On top of that, the economic results of the new reaction process would also be unpredictable. They can't do a soft rollout (new and old existing side by side) because then they'd have to give ridiculous buffs to the mega-alliances because nobody would voluntarily use this system over the existing one.

When I cancelled my sub a couple years ago, I told myself it was going to stay cancelled until CCP followed through on their promises to move away from N+1. This whole idea is so broken that the only way to fix it is adding even more N+1 to it. This goes so far in the opposite direction of what made EVE ever matter, that EVE and CCP might just be a lost cause. That everything about CCP's mindset over the past year or two screams N+1 so loudly it makes me think the company might just be irredeemable.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Tialano Utrigas
Running with Wolves
Triumvirate.
#271 - 2017-03-23 14:54:12 UTC
Couple of questions to consider:

1. So right now these structures are funded by corporations who, generally, make money by mining moons where the goo is simply transported and sold by a trusted few.

This system means that corporations have to forcibly tax their members for this to continue, otherwise how are the corporations going to pay for the running and build cost of these structures?

2. Has any thought been put into the amount of goo (and if it will only be one resource) these fields will generate with a view of preventing massive market fluctuations with the goo and by extension T2 ships and modules?

3. Right now most small - medium size alliances support their infrastructure with a number of low value moons.. Is there a risk that these alliances could burn their members out just to make ends meet and retain their sov if they have to have mining ops on a daily basis.

Overall I like, but I think there needs to be a review on how corporations/alliances fund themselves now.
Edek Hawker
POS Party
Ember Sands
#272 - 2017-03-23 14:55:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
Edek Hawker wrote:

If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)


Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.


Oh? So the refinery will NOT be using fuel blocks *sarcasm
Please try again goon...
Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2017-03-23 14:56:25 UTC
Nerriana wrote:
The Idea for "mining ledger" sounds like far too much automated intel for big blocks. Where is the commitment to deliberately allowing scamming, stealing and other shenanigans?

Making it possible for dishonest miners and/or mining coordinators to skim a bit is not a bug, it's a feature on EvE. What we really do not need is an automated bookkeeping system for big alliances to "big brother" their serfs.

Likewise, we don't want an automated system to monitor resources (what spontaneously-disintegrating moon goo field would be) so that aforementioned big alliances can know exactly who ninja-mined their semi-abandoned resources. This monitoring could become a seed for OTEC cartel 2.0, with big alliances more concerned of preventing protecting and exploiting their chokehold on critical materials.

On same vein the sizes of spawned moongoo-asteroids and the amount of moongoo they contain should be somewhat randomized. I know this would be a change from current steady-flow moon mining, but see above regarding opportunities for skimming.

Otherwise the idea sounds an improvement for current moon mining situation.


totaly agree - Big Alliances have "power" to sit days cloaking in the system of thair targets - so let them have some fun guarding thair own belt using cloaking bombers with cyno.
h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#274 - 2017-03-23 14:56:40 UTC
may anyone explain the term N+1 to a no-math guy?
sgtdale
WE Hate Corporations
#275 - 2017-03-23 15:01:05 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I'm too scared to read it. Plz tell me everything is gonna be ok. PLEASE TELL ME ITS OK.


adding complexities for complexies sake does not make for better game play.
Trying to force people to join corrupt corps and alliances to use the new toys, will only decrease the number of paying players.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2017-03-23 15:02:16 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
Quote:
Once the chunk of moon rock has completed its journey into space, the Refinery can use its drill module to detonate the chunk into a minable asteroid field. The exact time of the detonation is controlled by the owners of the Refinery within limits. If the chunk is left unattended long enough it will disintegrate into the asteroid field on its own.

Why the delay?
I feel, that the Owner already scheduled the date with the teamminingcrew. So there was already a decision.
If formup is bad or enemy is prepared, why should this state of boredom be prolonged?
If it was immediately detonated upon impact, there is going to be a time of clash possible. The exact time that can be read by all.
Yes, ok. You might want to give the owner some feeling of power and control.
But in the end the only decision that comes out of this particular mechanic is:
Just do it Pirate
Wait Cry and go to bed late this night while not doing anything more meaningful in eve this session.

So CCPLEASE make it immediate!!!

Defender:
- you see that it's bad time to harvest moon goo. You don't blow it up and just go do another activities
Attacker:
- you blocked owner from harvesting goo, you can go and do something else.

Seriously: You say like it's high-sec wardecs which make people sit docked for weeks. Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2017-03-23 15:04:06 UTC
Tialano Utrigas wrote:
Couple of questions to consider:

1. So right now these structures are funded by corporations who, generally, make money by mining moons where the goo is simply transported and sold by a trusted few.

This system means that corporations have to forcibly tax their members for this to continue, otherwise how are the corporations going to pay for the running and build cost of these structures?

2. Has any thought been put into the amount of goo (and if it will only be one resource) these fields will generate with a view of preventing massive market fluctuations with the goo and by extension T2 ships and modules?

3. Right now most small - medium size alliances support their infrastructure with a number of low value moons.. Is there a risk that these alliances could burn their members out just to make ends meet and retain their sov if they have to have mining ops on a daily basis.

Overall I like, but I think there needs to be a review on how corporations/alliances fund themselves now.


It's all essentially a profit as you use system so if your corp does not have the manpower to do it, it should either recruit to get it or abandon the moon.

The amount of Goo available will be scarce during the transition unless people start stockpiling more but everyone should know it now. The change is coming so preparing for it is important. For the future after implementation, it will all depends on how much each cycle of the drill generate in space and get mined. If the doom and gloom prevision of all low-sec people are true and not a single moon from there gets mined ever, then the price will likely stay high or raise until less tress is put on the market OR it reach a price where low-sec mining start becoming a thing.

The alliance/corp getting funded by passive POS mining should have read the message in the sky that it was going away.
Zanar Skwigelf
Wormhoppers Inc.
#278 - 2017-03-23 15:04:17 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:


May you explain how exactly tieing the quality of goo to the level of laser would impvoe Low and nerf null, because i dont get it?


If I'm understanding the current layout, r64 moons are not evenly distributed in null, and very rare in low.

Making any moon capable of r64 would make it less necessary to fight for space in null. I wasn't calling it a direct nerf, but poorly worded my point.

It would also improve the isk making capabilities of systems in null and low. Increasing the frequency of quality material is not necessarily a nerf to null, but definitely a buff to low
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2017-03-23 15:05:22 UTC
Edek Hawker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Edek Hawker wrote:

If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)


Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.


Oh? So the refinery will NOT be using fuel blocks *sarcasm
Please try again goon...


They surely don't use as much as all the tower required to perform 400 parallel reaction you will be able to do in a single refinery.
WitcherW
Eagle Wing Industries
#280 - 2017-03-23 15:06:34 UTC
This is GREAT thing! Now more peole now can participate in this new industry work and it is NOT just for big aliances privileges !

Old moon milking way just for big aliances is rly suck ,you get pasive mony - buy ship - go kill some people -and if you lose ship...who care you get new for "free" .
Now you need to work if you want something like all normal people and not looking to that mony falls from the sky(in in this case from moon Big smile)

GJ CCP just keep going!