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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

First post First post First post
Author
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
Rezeda Regnum
#201 - 2017-02-24 00:19:56 UTC
Tomoko Sunji wrote:


obviously less, because most of the guys in eve are plebs that can't fit decently a ship unless it becomes mainstream and easy to play.


orthrus TOP 5 zkill ship
any HIC there? noBig smile

sry for my English :-(

Casper24
Goryn Clade
#202 - 2017-02-24 00:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Casper24
lord xavier wrote:
Hans Downherpantz wrote:
brawling dies again

You don't brawl at a 30k orbit in a hic for anything other than to be risk adverse or you're too cheap to fit a nicely fit orth.



U should never orbit in this game ever.


Also yes i am obviously much to cheap and risk averse to fly an orthrus... hmmmmm.

This is more fun than an orthrus, takes a bit of skill to acutally fly, and against the meta so not everyone knows a direct counter - oh ya, and u live if a blob warps in on ur "brawling" hic

smack allowed in english only

Tomoko Sunji
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
#203 - 2017-02-24 00:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomoko Sunji
exiik Shardani wrote:
Tomoko Sunji wrote:


obviously less, because most of the guys in eve are plebs that can't fit decently a ship unless it becomes mainstream and easy to play.


orthrus TOP 5 zkill ship
any HIC there? noBig smile


As i said, if noone make a "dank pvp videa" most people in new eden won't even think about trying to fit it this way. And btw, this ship is more skill intensive that would ever been an orthrus (got a cap booster tho, easier cap management i give you that).
Justin Cody
Tri-gun
An Alliance Has No Name
#204 - 2017-02-24 00:24:09 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Did the ultra risk-averse 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud?


yeah but its probably right to do even though I don't like it. I will HTFU and adapt. fly Lachesis etc.

Now please make the Lach useful as armor tanker and faster/more agile and actully doing good dps in the cruiser range. thanks.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2017-02-24 00:45:19 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Changes:
  • Remove the Warp Scrambling effect from the Focused Warp Disruption Script
  • Introduce a new Focused Warp Scrambling Script with a -20% range bonus


Now balance out HIC's by increasing there base speed twice, and removing disallow propusion/support while having buble generator active.

GM's exploiting ingame, banning those who beat them, and now changing game mechanics for there pleasure... just sell ccp dev office to some serious company.
Rath Valent
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#206 - 2017-02-24 01:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rath Valent
These changes are OK but there is another aspect of HICs that should be looked at.

This surely will annoy T3C, ceptor and yacht pilots who are used to blowing through nullsec but nullified ships are a gameplay element that needs some sort of actual counter.

My corp CEO has suggested that a hictor bubble should be able to catch nullified ships so there is at least something that can be put on the field to try to prevent a nullified ship from simply moonwalking to zero on every warpable object.

Personally I would extend this to T2 bubbles as well but that's probably too much and the HIC approach requires active rather than passive engagement.

What does everyone think?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#207 - 2017-02-24 02:45:45 UTC
Ted McManfist wrote:
Did the ultra risk-averse 5,000 m/sec kiting people cry too loud?


I guess they did.

I was all full of positive thoughts about some of the changes, but this is a terrible change. We finally had a way to force some of the risk-averse kiters to be smarter about picking their engagements and you had to go and ruin it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ruby Gnollo
#208 - 2017-02-24 03:12:41 UTC
Pandemic Horde Rulez wrote:

HIC is good because it completely broken and overpowered but at same time difficult for smaller side to use because it slow and expensive so easy for us to blob. this is good balance mechanic.


If getting killmails in Eve was a matter of skill, Koreans would play and win ar it. Leave Eve to the rejects of competitive games, please
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#209 - 2017-02-24 03:20:30 UTC
Current script range is 37.5km on t2. 80% of that would be 30, not 20. Typo?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#210 - 2017-02-24 04:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
If CCP is insistent on this change, I'd recommend not making them quite so drastic. Buff the Lachesis so it can scramble at 37-40 kilometers. Reduce the maximum range on the HIC scrambling infinite point to 27-30 kilometers. That leaves a niche for both ships, without making either one utterly overpowered or useless.

I've been flying these ships for just over a year in small gang / home defense situations. Yes, if you ran into me in your kiting ship this past year, you probably did not have a very good day. Our counter-nano gangs used the Onyx and Huginn to good effect (at least when I was around, I know some of my less-experienced guys and gals got totally wrecked a few times). The Onyx was particularly nice because it could murder tackle, which made it easier to control the engagement. Additionally, it didn't die immediately if you kept your logistics hidden off grid or had them hang back to sucker kiters in.

In the future, I guess I'll use a Lachesis, but it is a very poor substitute for the HIC. In small gangs, as long as we are disciplined about not chasing stupidly, the outcome won't be any different. We'll either catch the kiters and kill them, or they will run away. Since the Lachesis is not as survivable, I expect logistics ships will be more important in the future, which means most of the elite kiters will whine about our logistics and then run away instead of whining about our HIC's and running away.

The small gang HIC's really rely on only using one utility slot for the WDFG. You give up 90 DPS to fit a second WDFG, which hurts in a small gang environment. So, while the overall nerf to the scrambler range is bad, it's worse that you have to drop your long range tackle to switch to the scrambling script, or give up some of your already rather low DPS. Fleet ships won't be as affected by this, because they tend to fit multiple HIC points. So they can keep the long point on something while having the scrambler ready to go if something gets close enough to scram.

Here is the Onyx fit I was using. She'll always have a soft spot in my heart. Decent DPS (~430 with heat), solid tank (~92k EHP with heat), kind of slow (~2200 m/s with heat, ~2700 with heat and boosts), and sluggish, but I had a lot of fun with her.

[Onyx, Onyx]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pith B-Type EM Ward Field
Medium Capacitor Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Warp Disruption Field Generator II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#211 - 2017-02-24 05:11:55 UTC
Casper24 wrote:



___
Phobos
[Phobos, Garmons Addy]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small Capacitor Booster II
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender

Warp Disruption Field Generator II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II




Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325
Focused Warp Disruption Script x2
Nanite Repair Paste x200
Navy Cap Booster 400 x22
Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490

502 dps with AM with 32km opti and 47km falloff
2361ms cold
36.4k EHP
OH and a 37km scram.
not to mention cap stable if ur not an idiot


So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.

There ya are :)





That looks slightly better than the one Suitonia posted but I am not convinced by it to be honest. Seriously, where are these ships all the time when I am out or digging through EvE data? It´s fair game to say that I spend ~2hours a day with "data digging" and roughly 5 hours at least out in space but I seriously haven´t seen a single HIC outside of a gatecamp that was even close to something I´d call "nasty". Your Phobos looks like it could **** on someones day but I can´t find them. Yet some people seem to be absolutely sure they are out there waiting in the dark and will scram them from far away.
The pure data tells another story and 5+ hours a day running around looking for **** - currently - in Black Rise gave me the same impression as the data. There are HICs yes but they are on the gates with a sebo Exec or something alike and they are nasty and I don´t want them to be there but that´s about it. I also see them a lot when I run through Providence, again they are on the gates shitting on a solo/small gang players parade.
Seriously. slowly this whole nerf the HIC stuff smells like someone is making **** up here. For whatever reason they do that, I don´t know but whenever I am asking for some solid arguments for a nerf not much is coming around here.

- There is not a single HIC that falls into the "nano cruiser" role from what I can tell so far. Too clunky, too slow, too sluggish.

- There is not a single argument for the nerf. Only "because they are OP/insert sth". No logical reason at all. Or did I miss sth?

- There is no data to back up that HICs are destroying small gangs. I just read this "100mn cruisers are the only option". Hell yeah, they are a pretty good option but not because of the HIC but more so because you run into bigger and bigger gangs/fleets out there all the time and getting pinned down by suicide tacklers is a serious thing. The 100mn option is simply too good to pass on in most cases. No sigbloom, no negative cap, no fear of scrams no matter what source.

- The community never had a problem with the new HIC except some vocals when the HIC buff came back then.

When I look at the HIC from a Hyde point of view or a pure solo player pov yeah, I want a HIC nerf because they screw my gameplay. From every other pov I don´t see a justification in a nerf to the HIC.

But maybe we are not on the same page the whole time and "small gang" needs clarification here. Not sure but if you take less than 10 ships including scout and light tackle the HIC seems to be a pegleg and you´re better off min/maxing your ****.
If you go with 12 to 20 ships the counters towards a HIC are plentyful so it´s somewhat balanced. But for the sake of it, can someone clarify their pov on this and feed some data?


Casper24
Goryn Clade
#212 - 2017-02-24 07:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Casper24
I dunno about all ur data diving. But simple as - how many people in this game ( percent wise ) do u think actually think on their own fits. not anything found on zkill or some youtube video. In each group of people how many "content: providers and forward-thinking" people are there out there for u to actually find.

This number is much higher in the FW frig meta granted, but for cruiser roaming - there are very few. That is why imo ur "data" or whatever that means isn't showing you what some of us are mentioning. Everyone and their mom is in an orthrus, a gila, a vni or omen navy. Why ?? cause that's what someone else who saw someone else, or was killed by one of these were flying.

Searching stats or zkill or whatever ur doing is never going to show u the most powerful ships or best setups. Just the most popular, and thats a never ending cycle until some "e-famous something" points it out. See chessurs nose, Suitonias kessy, Zoes Atron, Brains Keres. Everyone in different circles has their own things to insert there. But you get the picture.

Edit - Just a side note - how often do you ever see a small gang comp take on another small gang comp - this doesn't happen, as 2 highly skilled gangs will not put themselves in a position they cannot pull out of. Its 90% small gang vs kitchen sink or gate camp ( where there are none of these "forward thinking skilled players" that your data is looking for.

smack allowed in english only

Vexors Gonna Vex
The Spies Must Flow
#213 - 2017-02-24 07:43:36 UTC
Yes, cause you haven't already given enough tools to the EVE population to avoid conflict.

Just give everything interdiction nullification so I can quit hoping small gang PVP comes back and unsub.
Solaris Vex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2017-02-24 08:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Solaris Vex
So fleet hics will now be replaced by huggins and bhaalgorns. A range reduction to 30-35km scram would have be much more reasonable. RIP hics , RIP ship variety.
Huydo
Liga Freier Terraner
Northern Coalition.
#215 - 2017-02-24 08:00:55 UTC
With this changes, this class of ships, will be completely useless.
yogizh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2017-02-24 08:18:09 UTC
Huydo wrote:
With this changes, this class of ships, will be completely useless.


:agreed:
I just wonder what is going to be the next ship that requires months of skills and will be nerfed to the level where 2 faction frigates can kill them. Seems legit.

CCP remove ability of cruisers to fit 100 MN ABs, not changing properties, but simply Dissalow usage on this class. Then you will see what this is really about
Solaris Vex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2017-02-24 08:34:11 UTC
[quote=Casper24][quote=Trajan Unknown][quote=Suitonia]
Quote:

___
Phobos
[Phobos, Garmons Addy]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small Capacitor Booster II
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender

Warp Disruption Field Generator II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Hybrid Locus Coordinator II




Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2325
Focused Warp Disruption Script x2
Nanite Repair Paste x200
Navy Cap Booster 400 x22
Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M x2490

502 dps with AM with 32km opti and 47km falloff
2361ms cold
36.4k EHP
OH and a 37km scram.
not to mention cap stable if ur not an idiot


So my point stands, show me a HIC that is tanky and comparable to a nano cruiser when it comes to speed and damage projection/usefulness.

There ya are :)





Hmm a phobos with no rep and minimal buffer. Any ship with a rep and decent damage at 37km would outlast this quite easily. A Gila would be cheaper and stronger.
Vladislav Igorevic
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#218 - 2017-02-24 10:03:13 UTC
Чо там, опять Ева скатывается в УГ?
Luscius Uta
#219 - 2017-02-24 10:19:49 UTC
Should've been like that from the start.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

ikir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2017-02-24 11:19:53 UTC
well thx guys you just killed HICs again
t1 frig can now hold you down in your HIC,
also next time you want to balance something you should try and compare the time invested in maxing out some ship before nerfing it to the ground, i could agree to 24-27km scram range but this is just pointless
also you might wanna answer to cry babies for once they should maybe adapt and try to evolve in tactics instead of just killing entire line of ships
gg