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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

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Meiqur Orez
Trillium Invariant
Honorable Third Party
#141 - 2017-02-23 19:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Meiqur Orez
Oh dear,

Mark me down as a strong opponent to the change as marked here as a small gang kitey duder and pretty regular hic pilot.

So first some comparison

Lachesis with TS scram AND TS Point:
acceptably fast
Cost: 410m isk (just points and hull)
22.5k scram
27k overheated scram before links
30k scram with links
35.5k scram with links and overheat
Can take RR

Orthrus with TS Scram + TS Point
Zippy
Cost 430 (just points and hull)
16.9k scram
20.3 scram hot
22.7k scram with links
26.6k scram with links and heat
Can take RR

HIC:
cost around 450
Slow as ****
will scram to 21 with TS focus point
Cannot take RR
somewhat tanky

So a couple problems here, first the orthrus and especially lach should easily be able to outperform a hic while maintaining the ability to take RR and are considerably faster and more agile. Also a defensive scram on your orthrus almost certainly means the hic has no means to actually hold you down.

Additionally hics are the only viable way for a small group to counter web ships like vindicators and bhaalgorns without getting roflstomped. Well no more with these changed the over heated TS web will very nearly reach all the way out to the edge of scram range from your hic.

The hic agility is so low that the narrow window of "hold him down and not tackled back" basically means any hic pilot trying to maintain range is going to have a very rough time.

Anyway to sum up, rip hics, and this change is ********. Hyde your a dumbass.
Klaus vonKlauzwitz
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#142 - 2017-02-23 19:30:41 UTC
I would like to see some extra speed and better capacitor on the hulls, especially as they'll have to be in heavy neut range to shut down MJDs.

Also, not being able to warp over 150AU from full cap is just pathetic, and very painful in Thera.
Indy GosHawk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2017-02-23 19:33:34 UTC
I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus.
Captain jdd
Lone.Wolf.
#144 - 2017-02-23 19:35:30 UTC
Indy GosHawk wrote:
I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus.

Or carriers nah ?
Kagi Anzomi
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#145 - 2017-02-23 19:37:46 UTC
Captain jdd wrote:
Indy GosHawk wrote:
I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus.

Or carriers nah ?

What's wrong with carriers now?
Captain jdd
Lone.Wolf.
#146 - 2017-02-23 19:42:30 UTC
Should I really explain ?
Lel.
Indy GosHawk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2017-02-23 19:46:22 UTC
Captain jdd wrote:
Should I really explain ?
Lel.


.....Yes?
Captain jdd
Lone.Wolf.
#148 - 2017-02-23 19:48:08 UTC
Mira Chieve
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#149 - 2017-02-23 19:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Chieve
Indy GosHawk wrote:
I'm Probably not the first to think or say this, CCP Devs, please can you fix the actual broken things in the game, rather than screw with the things that DON'T NEED FIXING. This has Ridiculous ammounts of implications for a larger population of EVE than the nano-faggotry risk-averse Low Sec leet-pee vee pee'ers. Stop focusing on the whines of Fozzie's Butt Buddies and fix the real issues. If you really really want to fix a ship, look at the 70km+ point on the Arazu, or the retardation of the Orthrus.


WAAAAAAAAH
Why should CCP always cater for the nullsec babies?

Also, lol at people calling HICs slow.

But I suppose you are only used to overtanked ab fleet HICs. You are right here - those failfits aren´t a threat to any competent kiter.

But maybe some people actually have a brain and fly mwd nano linked and snaked hics that go 2,5 km/s cold.
Since they pretty much shut down anything bigger than a cruiser.

Put a 40km scram on those and voila, instant win. Those are the truly oppressive HICs. Not that blob fleet bullshit.
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2017-02-23 19:52:40 UTC
Meiqur Orez wrote:

So first some comparison

Lachesis with TS scram AND TS Point:
acceptably fast
Cost: 410m isk (just points and hull)
22.5k scram
27k overheated scram before links
30k scram with links
35.5k scram with links and overheat
Can take RR

Orthrus with TS Scram + TS Point
Zippy
Cost 430 (just points and hull)
16.9k scram
20.3 scram hot
22.7k scram with links
26.6k scram with links and heat
Can take RR

HIC:
cost around 450
Slow as ****
will scram to 21 with TS focus point
Cannot take RR
somewhat tanky

So a couple problems here, first the orthrus and especially lach should easily be able to outperform a hic while maintaining the ability to take RR and are considerably faster and more agile. Also a defensive scram on your orthrus almost certainly means the hic has no means to actually hold you down.


This.


As a micro/small gang PvPer who regularly flies against extremely kitey groups (heavily leaning toward Orthrus/Inty), this is a pretty brutal change.

I don't think that most of the HICs are extremely OP in micro/small gangs. RegenOnyx is pretty bad (hello 3k+ DPS tank), but none of the rest are very balanced, and Broadsword is pretty awful.

HICs make an extremely good counter to kitey gangs, and can let groups that prefer brawling able to compete. Most ships fast enough to catch kiting ships is weak enough to get blapped (thanks to RLML).


Besides, what ever happened to small, measured changes? This is a 47% reduction in HICs scram effectiveness. (I suppose it's measured.)

As a suggestion, I think a more reasonable change would be to start with something like 30km cold, 35km hot for T2.

Want Pyfa, but with more features?

Pyfa.fit
My Cat Meows
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2017-02-23 19:53:40 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Timm3h wrote:
*tips orthrus*
M' gameplay


Unironically HIC scrams just made Orthrus' much more prolific, because it's one of the few kiting ships that can project outside HIC Scram range while also tackling ships outside HIC scram range. What HICs killed was solo brawling with MJDs entirely, cheap, affordable or accessible kiting ships (RIP anyone trying to just take out a nano thorax, cane or stabber etc.).

Flying 100mn stuff + needing a Keres to even undock if you want to do non Orthrus stuff is getting boring.


i have to bump this, the hic change leaves us with a way greater variety.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#152 - 2017-02-23 19:53:50 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:


This is the first post I read that has some substance in it. :)

The can´t tackle thing is correct for sure. But that refers to solo/small gang again right? I mean, a RMLM Onyx is nasty to tackle in an Inty or alike I imagine. But for fleet fights rapids make no sense. My fleet HIC barely has anything on it you could label as a direct damage dealing weapon system. Anyway, there is no need to tackle a HIC with a frigate/inty is there?


Regarding your utility vs mid-slot thingy. I agree, you can fit a couple WDFGs on a HIC and it´s usually best to get as many as you can on them - regarding fleet HICs. So yeh, mid´s for tank or whatever floats your boat. But and that´s something I value more than having utility highs or be able to fit multiple WDFGs in my highs. You get bonused ewar on the recons ships. So for small gang stuff you get more ewar per hull and damp+scram is a nice addition. Same for paint+web even when it´s usually more efficient to get more webs instead of point+web but well, more bang per hull in my book.

Last but not least the more versatile/complex thing. Do you really think that way? I mean, flying a HIC is not that hard now and won´t be hard if the nerf goes through. At least not from a perspective of actually deciding what to do and where to be. Changing scripts depending on situation is a no brainer and using a bubble will either kill you like it is now or you actually control the grid and the bubble is called for - again a no brainer. After all the HIC is no dictor which actually needs some finesse to be flown.
HIC is something you can dual or even tripple box and the nerf would not change that at all. It will stay the same easy to use hull as it was before just with some un needed nerfs to it.



I forgot to mention, that in small scale yes.

As things are now, a devoter or a onyx role in small scale is BOTH antitackle and heavy tackle. Same role, as so many other kitey ships fall into. However as is now, it really is OP in this role, due to incredibly strong scram bonus.

Flying anything in fleet scale is not that hard is it? Orbit anchor / keep at range to anchor / align to ** -> lock broadcast --> f1.

Take a ship, any ship, and remove the fleet or most of the fleet from around you, and it immediatelly gets more variable, difficult and in my oppinion interesting. Failing to f1 and correct time in a bigger fleet means you miss a killmail, failing to f1 at correct time in solo/micro/small size can easily mean you die to that. The more buttons your ship has, the more possible mistakes is to be made. The more variations each button has, it increases the variations a lot more.

I do agree your view of hic flying in a bigger fleet. It is just as no brainer, as most of the other roles in any bigger fleet.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2017-02-23 19:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajan Unknown
Captain jdd wrote:
Should I really explain ?
Lel.



Well, if you think carriers are "broken" or need a fix you might explain your pov? Maybe you see something different from the majority? Some people might say Nid/Thanny are absurdly good when it comes to ratting. Others might feel the Thanny is too strong when it comes to pvp while the Chimera and the Archon are, do they exist anymore?
So yeah, maybe explain your statement. There are many things that pop into my mind when it comes to carriers and I´d like to see some downgrading on certain things to avoid carriers online in EvE but maybe you have some different thoughts?

Currently, from what I can see, carriers shred everything from frigates to battleships other caps. So yeah, it looks a bit crazy when coupled with FAX´s but maybe it´s just me. And maybe this is for another topic? :)


Ugly Eric wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:


This is the first post I read that has some substance in it. :)

The can´t tackle thing is correct for sure. But that refers to solo/small gang again right? I mean, a RMLM Onyx is nasty to tackle in an Inty or alike I imagine. But for fleet fights rapids make no sense. My fleet HIC barely has anything on it you could label as a direct damage dealing weapon system. Anyway, there is no need to tackle a HIC with a frigate/inty is there?


Regarding your utility vs mid-slot thingy. I agree, you can fit a couple WDFGs on a HIC and it´s usually best to get as many as you can on them - regarding fleet HICs. So yeh, mid´s for tank or whatever floats your boat. But and that´s something I value more than having utility highs or be able to fit multiple WDFGs in my highs. You get bonused ewar on the recons ships. So for small gang stuff you get more ewar per hull and damp+scram is a nice addition. Same for paint+web even when it´s usually more efficient to get more webs instead of point+web but well, more bang per hull in my book.

Last but not least the more versatile/complex thing. Do you really think that way? I mean, flying a HIC is not that hard now and won´t be hard if the nerf goes through. At least not from a perspective of actually deciding what to do and where to be. Changing scripts depending on situation is a no brainer and using a bubble will either kill you like it is now or you actually control the grid and the bubble is called for - again a no brainer. After all the HIC is no dictor which actually needs some finesse to be flown.
HIC is something you can dual or even tripple box and the nerf would not change that at all. It will stay the same easy to use hull as it was before just with some un needed nerfs to it.



I forgot to mention, that in small scale yes.

As things are now, a devoter or a onyx role in small scale is BOTH antitackle and heavy tackle. Same role, as so many other kitey ships fall into. However as is now, it really is OP in this role, due to incredibly strong scram bonus.

Flying anything in fleet scale is not that hard is it? Orbit anchor / keep at range to anchor / align to ** -> lock broadcast --> f1.

Take a ship, any ship, and remove the fleet or most of the fleet from around you, and it immediatelly gets more variable, difficult and in my oppinion interesting. Failing to f1 and correct time in a bigger fleet means you miss a killmail, failing to f1 at correct time in solo/micro/small size can easily mean you die to that. The more buttons your ship has, the more possible mistakes is to be made. The more variations each button has, it increases the variations a lot more.

I do agree your view of hic flying in a bigger fleet. It is just as no brainer, as most of the other roles in any bigger fleet.



I totally agree on the "small scale is way more interesting point. Fleet fights - to me - are just duty things. There is not much enjoyment to find outside of flying logi or special snowflake roles because you can´t improve your piloting by much.

On the small scale tho, the Onyx/Devoter while incredible tanky are slow as snails too. Whenever I jumped into my Onyx outside of fleet fights I regret it the second I undocked. It´s like flying a Drake or a a brick tanked DST. It feels slow and sluggish except you go full speed creep on the Onyx and that gives you the fear of being shot to bits in no time. When I fly something like a combat or force recon I feel way less sluggish and it feels like I can actually, actively do something to mitigate damage and be in a proper position. But and I rephrase myself here, most people are lazy and a HIC serves the lazy people. With a few exceptions of course. Hell, I even saw nano Drakes once and I like my brawling Orthrus but that´s not general consense when it comes to intelligent piloting. :D

For the record, my "cookie-cutter" Onyx comes with 107k EHP and 1400m/s. Not the fastest ship and for small gang semi optimal. If I am really pushing it I might creep up to 2k m/s but need to sacrifice a lot of damage and fully focus on "ewar" and at that point I just scrap it all together and hop into a recon which goes up to 3k m/s easily while having better ewar options and way less cost for the fit. Numbers before links of course. With links well, the recons are pretty fast if you´re going for it. :)
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2017-02-23 20:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: clipper shore
ok so lets look over the fourms at all the complaints about hic's been op the very specilised heavy skilled cruiser that is very specilised in what it does


fourms scaned results

no complaints

so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change and is there a reasonable reason for it

the hic's are very specilised skill intensive ship that nobody ive ever heard complain about being op

so larken can you plz tell me where you are getting your information from that the hic need to be nerfed to almost useless

hic's cannot move v.fast when it has a bubble up and cannot be repped

when using a focused point it cannot be repped and is used moslty to catch supers and titians and as an annti boosher on fleets but its not the best ship for this there are many other ships in the game that are better for catching the nano faggots pvper already

this change is unnesserary and pointless and will make 1 of the fundamentals that makes the hic unique in the game
it does what it was intended to do

so my point is are you ******* ******** larken
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#155 - 2017-02-23 20:10:59 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.

Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.

And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.

!


well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep...
who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape...

if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem...

btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank...

sry for my English :-(
Sp3ctr380
Seventeenth Battalion
Honorable Third Party
#156 - 2017-02-23 20:10:59 UTC
clipper shore wrote:

so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change...



Sounds like Hyde cried about it.
Mira Chieve
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#157 - 2017-02-23 20:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Chieve
exiik Shardani wrote:
Ugly Eric wrote:
one thing ppl seem to have missed completely is the usage of hics as a antitackle platform. Especially the onyx and the devoter. Those two ships have been practically untackleable with frigs heretills. When the devoter with pulses or a onyx with rapid lights gets tackled by a frig, the frig has not had the slightest chanche of survival, unless bunch of logi keeping them alive.

Another point that has been almost completely dismissed here is the fact, that HIC's dont need to sacrifice anything else for the 40km scram, as it is a highslot module, whitch they all have a utility high for. Arazus, huginns etc. other controlplatforms all haveto sacrifice midslots for tackle. That has and will be a HUGE advantage for hics, even without 40km, but 21km scram.

And pls stop saying RIP HIC's, as this change in my mind still keeps them as very valid ship, but not having a completely unfair advantage to them. 21km scram is still very powerfull tool. Not to forget their 40km disruptor.

!


well did you realize that HIC cannot get remote reps but frig in your example can? as well 2 times cheaper arazu can be remote rep...
who care about 37km disruptor when any HIC is slow as fu... well as destroyer and everybody with little brain, mwd and small capacitor can manage easily escape...

if you need nerf HIC, it is still better to let them have scram like 28km when faction 37km is so huge problem...

btw. did you try fit devoter as solo combat ship? I think not... try fit it with heavy pulses and then speak about tank...


Solo Beam Devoter is pretty strong. 40km scram and 500 dps at that range?
Try tackling it with anything smaller than a HIC.
AAR is plenty of tank, how much damage are you going to project and apply at 40km?

But you have no clue. Calling HICs slow as fu.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#158 - 2017-02-23 20:16:32 UTC
Sp3ctr380 wrote:
clipper shore wrote:

so i ask what dumb ass csm member asked for this change...



Sounds like Hyde cried about it.


Pretty much the entire solo and small gang community agrees with him.
Renters and people who can't PVP without a cyno hate him.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
ArmyOfMe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2017-02-23 20:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
So bloody confused as to what i think about this idea.
Its not like those hic points stop most nano gangs anymore since 100mn fits is the new meta, but still.
However with its current implementation i will agree focused hic points is overpowered due to range, but i fear this is a bit to much when it comes to nerf. Why not let it warp scram out to 24km which is what t2 disruptors do now (or at least let it go out to 28km with heat if 24km isnt the standard)?

If you wanna know why i would like more then 20km range, you would only have to look at some of the gates in minmatar space to see how bloody far away ppl uncloak.

ps: one more request if i may. Can you please let the focused diruption as well as the scram script stop ppl from using MJD

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Ted McManfist
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2017-02-23 20:20:02 UTC
CraftyCroc wrote:


I'll take a fight if i have a 5% chance of winning. I'm not fussed about losing a ship nor am i fussed about efficiency. I prefer piloting my own ship then flying in the blob. A 30KM scram gives me no options to nano. 0% chance of winning.


Oh no, your ship has a counter! Whatever will you do?! Oh, whine and cry until that counter is nerfed. OP SUCCESS!