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so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#461 - 2017-02-17 20:54:05 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
What is the proof that gate camps are the cause of low population numbers in low sec?


she doesnt have proof because lowsec is far from low population, i can kill 100 ships and pods a night sitting in tama. wtf is she talking about?


I would argue that even looking at posts like the OPs is not even good evidence. It is good evidence of an imprudent new player rage quitting. How many prudent new players are playing the game just fine. How many new players experienced that problem and took it as a lesson and found an alternative solution? My guess is that those latter two categories are not inclined to post here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#462 - 2017-02-17 20:57:51 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
[quote=Keno Skir]The point of the thread is that they're easy to avoid except for new (and according to come claims in this very thread new and naive) players.

Such is the weakness of a game who's skillset lies so deeply in meta. It could be better, when considered in a vacuum, but attempting to make a change to a feature of the game that adds so much and evidence suggests deters few players from the game is much more difficult.

Quote:
If we factor that in, these camps are designed solely as annoyances, to force people to travel much further than they would like, and/or to destroy ships of the least appropriate targets in the game.

They're risks. The challenge comes in what players are willing to do in dealing with them.

Quote:
I think it's crazy to block the 0.5 - 0.4 interfaces. It gives new players one more good reason not to venture outside highsec. How is that good for anybody? Even the fun-vampires would be better off if it was easier to access lowsec, and on balance it paid better (even given a much higher frequency of losing ships to PvP) than highsec.

Wormholes. Find any quiet HiSec system and get probin'. Chances are your adventure outside HiSec won't start with a gate camp (or a hole camp in this case).

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#463 - 2017-02-17 21:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:


Because delayed info = risk + doubling travelling time = stupid

Do you know friends who can follow you whenever you're logged in, and scout for you selflessly?

You do not have to get a second account, that's true: you can be a victim of spawn camps, that is allowed ^^

And yet you do have 3 accounts, say that they're handy to scout, and advise people to ask for their friends to scout.


Truly the most special snowflakes with special needs, this EvE community



First off, if you are using a shuttle or an interceptor it is not going to double your travel time if you are in a bigger and slower ship. Second, thanks for confirming you want things to be risk free.

As for scouting it depends. If I am in a pod, no. If I am in a shuttle no. If I am in an interceptor, no. If I am in a cloaky, no. Unlike you I don't mind some risk.

I got 3 accounts for reasons other than creating scouts. I use them for scouting/cynos, but that was just some icing on the cake. And I am advising people who do not want to use a second account and are taking too large a risk (by their own assesment) that yes, ask a friend. Might they have to wait? Well seems reasonable to me, part of reducing one's risk limits your options and imposes costs.

The truly special snowflake is the misanthropic player who passes out at the thought of having to do their own scouting.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#464 - 2017-02-17 21:19:52 UTC
Alpha CEO wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
This is what scouts are for, when you see somebody coming the other way you move your camp.


"A question: what good for EVE about the 0.5 to 0.4 choke points?" - this was the question.
Yes you could move your camp in to hisec...


No, you move it “towards” NS. Suppose it goes like this:

NS system -> LS system -> HS system.

If you are camping the HS side of the LS system, you’d move to the NS side if you see somebody coming that way. The campers will gladly kill both players going to a from NS

What system in the game are you talking about here?

NS -> LS -> HS that gets camped in the LS?


If you are camping the HS side of the LS system you might not have any dictors or hictors so yeah...camp the NS gate in LS so you have a shot at catching them.

If you do have a hictor or dictor, go into NS and sit on the LS gate and try to catch them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#465 - 2017-02-17 21:21:18 UTC
An HS carebear has no business in LS, unless you are prepared to deal with LS mechanics.

Its their sector.
Take precautions, make deals with them, or move there and join them.

I dont see the validity of this issue at all.
They dont want you entering from HS to steal their content and put them at risk by your presence.

This game is a sandbox. Figure out solutions, use your brain.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#466 - 2017-02-17 21:25:40 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
When that happens in a thread like this, we need only wait until the story stabilizes, then just run with it for a while.

In this case the story is "Only an idiot would get caught in a Gate Camp, therefore there are hardly any victims, and hence Gate Camps do no harm". This is self contradictory.

And also completely fabricated. "Only an idiot would get caught in a Gate Camp" is partially true, being dumb certainly increases your odds of failure, but it's also not the only reason for failure. A "more stable" story would be "careless pilots get caught in a gate camp".

The next part is a fallacy, likely based on the assumption only stupid and/or new players would get caught. The third attempts to dismiss the negative impact of gate camps without any reference to their positive impacts.

This is all a gross mirepresentation of the pro-gate camp arguments made in this thread.

Quote:
Gate Camps exist -because people get caught by them.

Amongst other things, but yeah, if they never worked they'd never be practiced.

Quote:
All three would benefit from lowsec being full of players.

More, maybe. I'm not so sure HiSec levels of population in LoSec would be a good thing.

Quote:
A minimum requirement is that players newly exposed to a genuine "PvP Zone" can afford to lose ships. And of course it needs to be accessible.

Their first PvP zone is on the other side of their first start gate. They can afford to lose ships on day one.

Quote:
TBH I enjoy the discussion mostly because my natural opposition (the innumerable fun-vampires infesting EVE) should be the ones trying to change this. They are the ones who would gain the most from asking CCP to make lowsec more accessible and profitable for rookies, since they'd get a huge increase in the number of potential helpless victims. But of course they're trapped - they can't live with themselves if they admit what they are, and the necessary denial precludes them from acting in their own interest.

The problem you have is that you've convinced yourself that it's self interest driving their arguments.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska
#467 - 2017-02-17 21:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
The hardest thing in EVE, and also that which most defines it, is we are forced to responsibility for our own actions.

EVE has severe, permanent and far reaching consequences for any and all actions you take (or dont take).

The freedom we have in EVE to make our own choices, is met by a commensurate responsibility for those choices.

The players involved in a gatecamp, are responsible for their own aptitude/organisation to make it effective.
Just as you, as someone attempting to bypass/survive it, are for your own.

EVE is not a perfect system, it is an evolving, changing system. An ecosystem.
It is a system in which we are all participant, and in which we all contribute to the above.

You are unduly concerned with the actions of others, rather than focusing on your own.
Its up to you, what you do, no one else.
You are responsible for that, as they are for theirs.

You cant control what others choose or do, you can only control what you choose or do.

You cant blame a gatecamp for your loss, you can only blame yourself for flying into it.
You cant blame them for having setups/organisation that exceed your own.
You can only blame yourself for not matching ithat, by means available to you, inorder to evade/escape it., or destroy it.

You need to stop trying to blame others, for the results of your own choices.
Those choices are yours, made freely, by you.
So are the choices of others, made freely, by them.

TLDR: All choices matter in EVE, both yours, and theirs.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Alpha CEO
Doomheim
#468 - 2017-02-17 22:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alpha CEO
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alpha CEO wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
This is what scouts are for, when you see somebody coming the other way you move your camp.


"A question: what good for EVE about the 0.5 to 0.4 choke points?" - this was the question.
Yes you could move your camp in to hisec...


No, you move it “towards” NS. Suppose it goes like this:

NS system -> LS system -> HS system.

If you are camping the HS side of the LS system, you’d move to the NS side if you see somebody coming that way. The campers will gladly kill both players going to a from NS

What system in the game are you talking about here?

NS -> LS -> HS that gets camped in the LS?


If you are camping the HS side of the LS system you might not have any dictors or hictors so yeah...camp the NS gate in LS so you have a shot at catching them.

If you do have a hictor or dictor, go into NS and sit on the LS gate and try to catch them.

Yes, yes, yes...but what system?

Name the system that you are referring to here as your example.

A lowsec system with a high and null connection that gets camped.

For example, there's Reblier, it is never camped ever, so that can't be the system you are drawing this example from.

So what system?
Scruffled
#469 - 2017-02-17 22:40:44 UTC
I love seeing my victims complain.
Salvos Rhoska
#470 - 2017-02-17 22:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scruffled wrote:
I love seeing my victims complain.


Fair enough.

But why is that?
Why do you love that?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#471 - 2017-02-17 23:15:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Fair enough.

But why is that?
Why do you love that?

Because it's better than a salt lick apparently...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Salvos Rhoska
#472 - 2017-02-17 23:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Fair enough.

But why is that?
Why do you love that?

Because it's better than a salt lick apparently...


Probably most people here dont know what that is.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Scruffled
#473 - 2017-02-17 23:59:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scruffled wrote:
I love seeing my victims complain.


Fair enough.

But why is that?
Why do you love that?


What makes someone love hearing "you really made a difference"?
What makes someone love seeing someone smile?
What makes someone love feeling the compassion of others?

Desire.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#474 - 2017-02-18 00:58:35 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
An HS carebear has no business in LS, unless you are prepared to deal with LS mechanics..


thread

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#475 - 2017-02-18 01:21:53 UTC
Scruffled wrote:
Desire.

The line between desire and ego is a thin one. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#476 - 2017-02-18 04:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Alpha CEO wrote:

Yes, yes, yes...but what system?

Name the system that you are referring to here as your example.

A lowsec system with a high and null connection that gets camped.

For example, there's Reblier, it is never camped ever, so that can't be the system you are drawing this example from.

So what system?


Which exact system? IDK, it was a hypothetical for a thought experiment to illustrate that gate campers are not going to just sit on one gate and kill traffic in just one direction, but to kill it going in both directions if they can.

The idea that gate camps are aimed at a subset of players is a pernicious and patently false lie, IMO. That some scrubs on the forum like to come here and SJW for "new players" is sicken bullshit in that it usually means they are here arguing their own agenda and are dissembling and hiding behind the false patina of "protecting" new players.

As for Reblier, oh Hell yes it used to be camped. Used to camp it with other IT Alliance players quite a bit when we staged out of there while taking moons in LS from PL way back. We even used as a staging area for invading Fountain. Of course, once we moved to Fountain core that stopped.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#477 - 2017-02-18 07:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alpha CEO wrote:

Yes, yes, yes...but what system?

Name the system that you are referring to here as your example.

A lowsec system with a high and null connection that gets camped.

For example, there's Reblier, it is never camped ever, so that can't be the system you are drawing this example from.

So what system?


Which exact system? IDK, it was a hypothetical for a thought experiment to illustrate that gate campers are not going to just sit on one gate and kill traffic in just one direction, but to kill it going in both directions if they can.

This is a perfect example what I referred to earlier as "truthiness". A synthetic scenario intended only to support some random point the poster wants to make, but with no connection to reality (not even EVE reality).

Scenarios and anecdotes can't prove a general case, but if they are real they do show what's possible. They are potentially very useful.

But one that's just made up on the spot is useless. No conclusion can be drawn from it. It doesn't suggest any further investigation. It doesn't encourage anyone to reconsider the generality of established theories.

They are good for derailing sensible discussions though.
Alpha CEO
Doomheim
#478 - 2017-02-18 07:47:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

As for Reblier, oh Hell yes it used to be camped. Used to camp it with other IT Alliance players quite a bit when we staged out of there while taking moons in LS from PL way back. We even used as a staging area for invading Fountain. Of course, once we moved to Fountain core that stopped.

You staged in Reblier, a completely isolated lowsec system with no other lowsec around it, while taking lowsec moons from PL?

When was this?

Why would you state out of Reblier to attack fountain? The nearest fountain system is almost 40 jumps away.

As for using a fake scenario to prove what happens in game, well it being fake says it all.
Salvos Rhoska
#479 - 2017-02-18 07:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scruffled wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scruffled wrote:
I love seeing my victims complain.


Fair enough.

But why is that?
Why do you love that?


What makes someone love hearing "you really made a difference"?
What makes someone love seeing someone smile?
What makes someone love feeling the compassion of others?

Desire.


Have you ever considered a career in Customer Relations?
Especially the Complaints department.

Should be Heaven for you, whereas for some it would be the 9th Circle of Hell.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#480 - 2017-02-18 08:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska