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Where did the fun go?

First post First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#301 - 2017-02-15 18:14:47 UTC
mkint wrote:
Yeah... you really don't do yourself any favors. You ARE the argument in favor of needing new forums. Like criminals ARE the argument in favor of prisons, and the mentally ill ARE the argument in favor of psychiatry. So little self awareness.


So Im not doing myself any favors?
When its YOU associating me, with criminals and the mentally ill?

You call that self-awareness on your part?

Do you think I will somehow disappear or be suppressed in the new forums?
I dont think so. But Im not so sure about you.
mkint
#302 - 2017-02-15 18:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
ISD Max Trix wrote:

mkint wrote:
Ok, that's not entirely true, what we *do* have available to discuss is what's in the CSM notes about the new upcoming forums. Anyone know anything about the out-of-the-packaging features of the new forums software CCP is planning on using?


To give you a general idea the software the new forums will be using is https://www.discourse.org/

https://www.discourse.org/about/
Hmm. The features generally sound pretty good, if they end up enabled. Flagging/community moderation. Option to show "top topics" for given date ranges. Earned reputation grants limited mod powers (though I'd doubt that'll be enabled.) Summarize button to only show the posts in a thread that get the most likes. Wiki posts would be handy for some of the "new player guides" threads, though I suspect CCP would skip that feature.

I guess the big downsides of it (from the CSM minutes) appear to be integration issues. If our options are 1) what functions as 3rd party forums where the devs rarely post even though they are official, or b) 3rd party forums where the devs do post that are not CCP hosted, I can't see much reason to keep the forums at all, regardless the feature set. Are the forums any more important than the wiki was? And it got axed.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Cerypha Culifera
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#303 - 2017-02-15 18:40:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
mkint wrote:
Yeah... you really don't do yourself any favors. You ARE the argument in favor of needing new forums. Like criminals ARE the argument in favor of prisons, and the mentally ill ARE the argument in favor of psychiatry. So little self awareness.


So Im not doing myself any favors?
When its YOU associating me, with criminals and the mentally ill?

You call that self-awareness on your part?

Do you think I will somehow disappear or be suppressed in the new forums?
I dont think so. But Im not so sure about you.


Im ,new to the forums and this is an interesting debate but Salvos , what is the fight about? Currently it seems like a me against the world kind of attitude that you are running.

Idk maybe we should chill and look at the topics at hand instead of making it personal.
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#304 - 2017-02-15 20:19:47 UTC
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
ISD Max Trix wrote:
Malcanis

Followed your post till the last paragraph. Then you lost me. ISD's can not ban or mute someone on the forums. We can how ever submit to CCP (the community team) what the player did/posted. At that point CCP makes the call on a ban or mute. Now if it's bad enough (such as someone spamming porn malware etc) we can request an emergency mute from the GM team. But we better have a damn good reason to go that route because Internal Affairs will be asking. So you accusation that the ISD banned you is false on its face, your issue there is with CCP.


I'm new and even I know the capabilities of the ISD team is a bit more than that. You guys can lock and remove posts. Effectively shutting down a poster. Let's forgo the Slavos tactic of splitting of hairs and the gas lighting and stay focused on the issues. There's a consensus that the Eve forums aren't as enjoyable as before. This raised two questions : why and what can be done to rectify it.

After reading the comments here , one of the reasons that cannot be brushed aside is the unhappiness contributors of the Eve forums have with the moderation team. Not all of you, and no one has been specifically identified. However enough posts have been made that one cannot deny that there's a real feeling that the performance of the ISD team has been tainted by behaviors of inconsistency, heavy handed application of the rules, and possible bias. Contributors have asked for objective and reasonable moderation. The key word being 'moderate'.

Frankly I'm a bit disappointed in both you and ISD Fractal. You both had opportunities to work with the community on ways to improve these forums. Sadly you've gone the way of being defensive and excuse making. Some of the excuses aren't even good too. Honestly Fractal, calling Reddit shinny and new as the reason to why people are posting there and not here is as foolish as it is off putting. There's simply no sense in making that kind of remark when the Eve DEV team gravitates there to communicate with the players. Im new and I can see how much that screams that there's something wrong.

While we're aren't in agreement on specific ways to improve parts of these forums. We are generally interested in seeing these forums improve. I think it's safe to say we aren't against you. It's safe to say that most of us don't mind having the forums moderated.
Flacon mentioned that new forums were in the works. I've doubts that those new forums would be any sort of improvement until the issues afflicting the current forums are addressed.


Good evening everyone,

i would like to adress some points that were raised within this thread. And i want to start with pointing everyone to the forum rules. You will clearly see, that normaly, your thread would already break several forum rules and would get closed for breaking them. We have decided to let this thread remain open and even informed CCP about your thread. This resulted in getting a response by CCP Falcon. You are welcome, Kaleb!

I highly doubt you know what ISD and esp. the CCL can do in regards to forum moderation. And i even doubt that you are "that" new around here as you have stated several times. It rather looks you have some sort of agenda with ISD to me. I wont blame you for that though. I wish we could be more open to all of you, but we cant as we signed a NDA. One thing i can promise you, when we post here as ISD it is the plain truth. Now why is that, you may ask? Because we as ISD represent CCP and we for sure want to do a good job. Each team is monitored by different CCP employees and all of ISD is under the watchful eyes of internal affairs. Trust me, we have a lot of respect for IA and are careful to not mess up in our daily routine.

Of course you will find negative comments. Thats the course of nature. Negative comments get voiced more frequently as positive ones. Please make no mistake in believing forum moderation is here to please anyone. The forum rules are here to make the forums a comfortable place for everyone to participate in meaningful discussions. If you dont break the rules your post will stay. It is very simple. CCP provided the rulebox for this sandbox and we act accordingly.

Kaleb, you mentioned the word bias in your post. I will ask you now if you have proof about possible bias of an ISD member? If you have proof, did you forward it to internal affairs for it to be reviewed? If you dont have proof about it, why do you make such a bold claim? Im very honest here with you. The members of ISD are investing their spare, free time to give something back to the community. They are building up a reputation for themselves and the company they do this for. You are undermining their credibility and frankly you are just rude doing so.

You say you want to improve the forums? Hey, thats great. We are all up for that. Feel free to provide us with your bullet points in a meaningful and a respectful manner. We for sure are listening to you.

Oh and last but not least, could we please stop using "Since ISD started moderating here the forums went to ****"? Feel free to check the birth date of this character. I began my ISD duties as a forum moderator at that creation date and even then, there was already a ISD forum moderation in place. Threads got locked, posts got edited, threads got moved, threads got renamed and it all happened way back too.

If you find spelling errors, im sorry.

-Esh

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#305 - 2017-02-15 20:54:14 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey Guys Big smile

Thanks for the comments, it's nice to know there's still a sizeable amount of people who care about the health of the forums, for sure.

We're actually in the middle of testing an entirely new forum system with the assistance of our Volunteer team, and we'll more than likely be looking to roll it out somewhere toward the summer Smile

The rollout of these forums is going to include a complete rewrite of the forum rules (relaxing quite a few of them), re-organizing our forum categories and the introduction of a new mandate for ISD in terms of how moderation is carried out, as well as a few other things that the community team will be blogging about in the not too distant future (more than likely soon after Fanfest, which happens in April).

The idea will be to promote more open and direct (but civil) discussion, and give the community a more relaxed place to talk about spaceships P

We'll have more information in the near future <3


Soon™ Question

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#306 - 2017-02-15 23:43:44 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey Guys Big smile

Thanks for the comments, it's nice to know there's still a sizeable amount of people who care about the health of the forums, for sure.

We're actually in the middle of testing an entirely new forum system with the assistance of our Volunteer team, and we'll more than likely be looking to roll it out somewhere toward the summer Smile

The rollout of these forums is going to include a complete rewrite of the forum rules (relaxing quite a few of them), re-organizing our forum categories and the introduction of a new mandate for ISD in terms of how moderation is carried out, as well as a few other things that the community team will be blogging about in the not too distant future (more than likely soon after Fanfest, which happens in April).

The idea will be to promote more open and direct (but civil) discussion, and give the community a more relaxed place to talk about spaceships P

We'll have more information in the near future <3


Soon™ Question
Let's hope any roll out of new forums involves checking whether or not cookies can be abused to log in as someone else Idea

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#307 - 2017-02-16 00:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
If I can't login to the new forums using the EVE API I won't be using them. And here I'm already getting nostalgic about the "old" EVE Forums and they're not even gone yet...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#308 - 2017-02-16 00:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
If I can't login to the new forums using the EVE API I won't be using them. And here I'm already getting nostalgic about the "old" EVE Forums and they're not even gone yet...
Be careful what you wish for, with this generation of forums CCP ripped out the user authentication code from an opensource forum package and replaced it with their own.

It didn't go well, you could log in as a Dev by manipulating some data in a session cookie (iirc)

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#309 - 2017-02-16 00:40:09 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Be careful what you wish for, with this generation of forums CCP ripped out the user authentication code from an opensource forum package and replaced it with their own.

It didn't go well, you could log in as Dev with very little effort.

I had a look at this Discourse forum software - I wasn't overly impressed. It seems we'll trade the current ease-of-use and the ability to interact with the EVE universe for the ability to become another Ferret hammering away at the mobile pellet feeder. The only reason it would make sense to ditch the current format is if the software utilized for the current EVE Forums is basically EOL and they're not going to be able to support it going forward. Or maybe it's too much development effort and it's easier to simply offset this to a third party developer. It sounds like it's going ahead regardless, though.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#310 - 2017-02-16 02:17:00 UTC
geeze I feel like I should have seen this thread earlier.... I guess that has something to do about the "fun" so many of these threads just seem the same, or go to crap after a few pages I just don't even look. Not to mention the other forum sections have gotten so repetitive and slow, although I'm not complaining about not having a how do I raven thread every day.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#311 - 2017-02-16 02:22:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I see plenty of low level and blatant insulting here.

I also see fake indignation and trolling.

I also see tons of completely useless waste of board space by mentally challenged shiptoasters.

If you are gonna insult someone or waste our time in reading what you produce, atleast make it clever and classy.

"Shiptoasters" i love this and your entire comment
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#312 - 2017-02-16 06:16:08 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
ISD Max Trix wrote:
Malcanis

Followed your post till the last paragraph. Then you lost me. ISD's can not ban or mute someone on the forums. We can how ever submit to CCP (the community team) what the player did/posted. At that point CCP makes the call on a ban or mute. Now if it's bad enough (such as someone spamming porn malware etc) we can request an emergency mute from the GM team. But we better have a damn good reason to go that route because Internal Affairs will be asking. So you accusation that the ISD banned you is false on its face, your issue there is with CCP.


I'm new and even I know the capabilities of the ISD team is a bit more than that. You guys can lock and remove posts. Effectively shutting down a poster. Let's forgo the Slavos tactic of splitting of hairs and the gas lighting and stay focused on the issues. There's a consensus that the Eve forums aren't as enjoyable as before. This raised two questions : why and what can be done to rectify it.

After reading the comments here , one of the reasons that cannot be brushed aside is the unhappiness contributors of the Eve forums have with the moderation team. Not all of you, and no one has been specifically identified. However enough posts have been made that one cannot deny that there's a real feeling that the performance of the ISD team has been tainted by behaviors of inconsistency, heavy handed application of the rules, and possible bias. Contributors have asked for objective and reasonable moderation. The key word being 'moderate'.

Frankly I'm a bit disappointed in both you and ISD Fractal. You both had opportunities to work with the community on ways to improve these forums. Sadly you've gone the way of being defensive and excuse making. Some of the excuses aren't even good too. Honestly Fractal, calling Reddit shinny and new as the reason to why people are posting there and not here is as foolish as it is off putting. There's simply no sense in making that kind of remark when the Eve DEV team gravitates there to communicate with the players. Im new and I can see how much that screams that there's something wrong.

While we're aren't in agreement on specific ways to improve parts of these forums. We are generally interested in seeing these forums improve. I think it's safe to say we aren't against you. It's safe to say that most of us don't mind having the forums moderated.
Flacon mentioned that new forums were in the works. I've doubts that those new forums would be any sort of improvement until the issues afflicting the current forums are addressed.


Good evening everyone,

i would like to adress some points that were raised within this thread. And i want to start with pointing everyone to the forum rules. You will clearly see, that normaly, your thread would already break several forum rules and would get closed for breaking them. We have decided to let this thread remain open and even informed CCP about your thread. This resulted in getting a response by CCP Falcon. You are welcome, Kaleb!

I highly doubt you know what ISD and esp. the CCL can do in regards to forum moderation. And i even doubt that you are "that" new around here as you have stated several times. It rather looks you have some sort of agenda with ISD to me. I wont blame you for that though. I wish we could be more open to all of you, but we cant as we signed a NDA. One thing i can promise you, when we post here as ISD it is the plain truth. Now why is that, you may ask? Because we as ISD represent CCP and we for sure want to do a good job. Each team is monitored by different CCP employees and all of ISD is under the watchful eyes of internal affairs. Trust me, we have a lot of respect for IA and are careful to not mess up in our daily routine.

Of course you will find negative comments. Thats the course of nature. Negative comments get voiced more frequently as positive ones. Please make no mistake in believing forum moderation is here to please anyone. The forum rules are here to make the forums a comfortable place for everyone to participate in meaningful discussions. If you dont break the rules your post will stay. It is very simple. CCP provided the rulebox for this sandbox and we act accordingly.

Kaleb, you mentioned the word bias in your post. I will ask you now if you have proof about possible bias of an ISD member? If you have proof, did you forward it to internal affairs for it to be reviewed? If you dont have proof about it, why do you make such a bold claim? Im very honest here with you. The members of ISD are investing their spare, free time to give something back to the community. They are building up a reputation for themselves and the company they do this for. You are undermining their credibility and frankly you are just rude doing so.

You say you want to improve the forums? Hey, thats great. We are all up for that. Feel free to provide us with your bullet points in a meaningful and a respectful manner. We for sure are listening to you.

Oh and last but not least, could we please stop using "Since ISD started moderating here the forums went to ****"? Feel free to check the birth date of this character. I began my ISD duties as a forum moderator at that creation date and even then, there was already a ISD forum moderation in place. Threads got locked, posts got edited, threads got moved, threads got renamed and it all happened way back too.

If you find spelling errors, im sorry.

-Esh



wow

well, see you all at r/eve everybody.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#313 - 2017-02-16 06:34:57 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:

Oh and last but not least, could we please stop using "Since ISD started moderating here the forums went to ****"?

I'm not blaming you in person, or ISD itself. You not made the forum rules, CCP did. You were just executing them.

ISD Eshtir wrote:

i would like to adress some points that were raised within this thread. And i want to start with pointing everyone to the forum rules. You will clearly see, that normaly, your thread would already break several forum rules and would get closed for breaking them. We have decided to let this thread remain open and even informed CCP about your thread.

Ofc we know that. That's why no matter what CCP will do with forums they already failed, beacuse of "rules". I don't see why this thread supposed to be locked btw, because of Salvos? Whining at CCP? "The rules".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Salvos Rhoska
#314 - 2017-02-16 08:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:

Oh and last but not least, could we please stop using "Since ISD started moderating here the forums went to ****"?

I'm not blaming you in person, or ISD itself. You not made the forum rules, CCP did. You were just executing them.

ISD Eshtir wrote:

i would like to adress some points that were raised within this thread. And i want to start with pointing everyone to the forum rules. You will clearly see, that normaly, your thread would already break several forum rules and would get closed for breaking them. We have decided to let this thread remain open and even informed CCP about your thread.

Ofc we know that. That's why no matter what CCP will do with forums they already failed, beacuse of "rules". I don't see why this thread supposed to be locked btw, because of Salvos? Whining at CCP? "The rules".


If you dont see why/how this thread and some of its content repeatedly breaks several rules, that is a problem.
They are abundantly obvious if you arè even superficially aware of the rules.
Ive read them intently, atleast half a dozen times over the years.
I dont expect others to have done that, but most of them are common sense

There are infractions in this thread that usually would result in a forum ban.
To my knowledge, none such has yet been applied.
There are multiple posts that would usually result in deletion.
To my knowledge, not one has been deleted.

How is that for freedom? Pretty good, if you ask me.

As ISD Eshtir indicated here, and has been the case in many many other threads, CCP allows occasionally a great deal of levity on important threads. As ISD Eshtir also indicated, this is a result of a team effort, where ISDs work closely with CCP, both to bring to their attention important threads, and to counsel on what to do with them.

People try to paint this place as a prison, with restrictions everywhere, and tyrannical ISD prison guards, when nothing could be further from the truth. There is a huge degree of freedom here, as long as you follow a simple set of common sense rules.

There is a huge degree of internal oversight of ISDs by CCP, and a huge degree of ISD interaction with CCP and the community, both. You can appeal ISD decisions, and you can report ISDs if you feel they have themselves broken the rules or the terms of their position.

The rules exist for real, justified reasons. Follow them, do not break them, and you will be fine.
Is that so hard?
Rules are not what break this forum. Players breaking rules, is what breaks the forum.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#315 - 2017-02-16 08:50:05 UTC
ISD Max Trix wrote:


But in all honesty half of those who want the ISD gone are the same people who send most of the reports in.


yea but they don't get ISD do a lot more than responding to reports on the forums. would be a bad idea to remove the ISD.

to be honest i'd say that type of people don't know what they want and have very little time between their whining to think.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#316 - 2017-02-16 08:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
ISD Max Trix wrote:

To give you a general idea the software the new forums will be using is https://www.discourse.org/


Is it only me, or is that site in a link that causes bluescreening of my perfectly stable in other circumstaces win 7?

It have done that twice in my firefox, newest stable version. I will not open it the third time.

Its looks worse than Kyonoke virus outbreak already.....

If CCP will make that into new forums, what guarantee we have that it will not fry our computers, or make them unusable?
Salvos Rhoska
#317 - 2017-02-16 09:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Since some leeway is allowed here, I will risk pushing the envelope, to the ends of demonstrating, concretely, what I mean about freedom here, breaking rules, and moderation:

Ive received a forum ban twice in my time here.

The first time, it was entirely my own fault. I willfully and knowingly broke the rules.
I did not appeal the decision, I took my licks, and returned afterwards, now knowing I need to exercise more restraint for the good of the boards, and myself, or face the consequences.

The second time, was not so straight-cut.
Due to the circumstances and context in which I wrote a controversial post, on a very controversial topic, and enormous amounts of personal antagonists spam reporting me in efforts to silence me and remove me as one of their primary opponents, ISDs->CCP forum banned me. This time I did appeal, and iirc, also submitted a report. My appeal was denied and my report had no result.

Again, I HTFU, accepted that CCP has autonomy and jurisdiction to decide on it. I did not agree with the decision, but I accepted it.

The system works. Its the most free, equal, most community integrated, most overseen and well-organized system of moderation, with multiple tiers and teamwork between them, that I have ever seen on an official game forum. Nothing else has ever even come close. Frankly, the level/standard of organization/oversight of moderation here exceeds that of most companies or government agencies.

Rules, and how they are applied to us can sometimes appear to be unfair to the person they are applied to, but its up to you how you deal with your own culpability in causing action to be taken against you in the first place.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#318 - 2017-02-16 09:27:39 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If you dont see why/how this thread and some of its content repeatedly breaks several rules, that is a problem.
They are abundantly obvious if you arè even superficially aware of the rules.
Ive read them intently, atleast half a dozen times over the years.
I dont expect others to have done that, but most of them are common sense

There are infractions in this thread that usually would result in a forum ban.
To my knowledge, none such has yet been applied.
There are multiple posts that would usually result in deletion.
To my knowledge, not one has been deleted.

How is that for freedom? Pretty good, if you ask me.

As ISD Eshtir indicated here, and has been the case in many many other threads, CCP allows occasionally a great deal of levity on important threads. As ISD Eshtir also indicated, this is a result of a team effort, where ISDs work closely with CCP, both to bring to their attention important threads, and to counsel on what to do with them.

People try to paint this place as a prison, with restrictions everywhere, and tyrannical ISD prison guards, when nothing could be further from the truth. There is a huge degree of freedom here, as long as you follow a simple set of common sense rules.

There is a huge degree of internal oversight of ISDs by CCP, and a huge degree of ISD interaction with CCP and the community, both. You can appeal ISD decisions, and you can report ISDs if you feel they have themselves broken the rules or the terms of their position.

The rules exist for real, justified reasons. Follow them, do not break them, and you will be fine.
Is that so hard?
Rules are not what break this forum. Players breaking rules, is what breaks the forum.

and? So what? Sky has fallen because this thread was not locked? If read between lines/posts there was some part of discussion/posting opinions on both sides. That's why it's so important to filter incoming information, and not by ISD but by me, reader. When I'll see forum troll posting few times I won't bother to check his next "work". CCP and ISD are aware that forum is in wrong place and they want to change that state, but this is two-side deal. Unless we/players/readers do not spoke our concerns about it, nothing will change. For now we will have unneeded layout change and unknown rules relaxing, and nothing will be explained before fanfest because that's how CCP work. Instead shows us concept today and talk about it on fanfest.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#319 - 2017-02-16 11:16:25 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed a whole bunch of off topic posts. Keep it civil and on topic, thanks.


On topic or ironic? FC, confused!
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#320 - 2017-02-16 11:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
ISD Fractal wrote:


I think Reddit is popular not because of the lack of moderation


Respectfully, you're wrong. This is the number one reason. Number two is the reply threading that actually allows you to follow a child conversation in a thread without brain explosion.

We get it. CCP doesn't want discussion that looks bad on the product or could be quoted in RL to the detriment of their marketing. However, that is exactly what EVE needs at times. Serious issues and deficiencies get overlooked, censored, and/or ignored, that outright diminish the product experience. The Jita riots of Incarna, okay, lets admit it - the wave of unsubbing, was so intense because CCP had screwed the lid down on criticism and sat on it forever. We were done with the forums. r/EVE flourished after that.

Why am I here now? A sheer coincidence. I was looking for any dev posts about the latest deployment issues and stumbled upon this thread. Cheers!


[Sig censored for direct quoting a Dev from the forums. YMMV]