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Where did the fun go?

First post First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#241 - 2017-02-13 16:01:12 UTC
ISD Buldath wrote:
Sigh.
You were doing good, Salvos, but your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.
Folks, I'm leaving it alone so you see what we do and why.
Burn.

Bounties and wardecs work, too.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salvos Rhoska
#242 - 2017-02-13 16:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
ISD Buldath wrote:
Sigh.

You were doing good, Salvos, but your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.

Folks, I'm leaving it alone so you see what we do and why.

Burn.


It was satire.

The posting I did above is commonplace on Reddit, and thanks to the rules of this forum and moderators like yourself, rarely occurs here.

That, exactly, is the difference between Reddit, and here.

The shiptoasters left this place, and moved to Reddit, where they can avoid moderation.
If you think its hard for you here, its nothing compared to the volume of crap on Reddit.
For a mod there, its like 24/7 sitting with your mouth open to receive the crap hundreds of posters flush down their toilet.

That is why Reddit needs a up/down censure/amplification system, because they are flooded with crap from those shiptoasters without sufficient moderators/means to forestall it.

People are suggesting Reddit as a better place, when infect it is exactly the place so overwhelmed with so much garbage that they cant handle it without giving it over to public means of censure.

Reddit itself, as a player run community, is fine. If that is what they want, let them have it. Nothing wrong with that.
But when it comes to Dev output/input it should happen here, on CCPS turf.

I have nothing against Devs engaging with players on 3rd party platforms, but all the important stuff should happen here.

I am glad to see Falcon is already aware of this, and that CCP is moving forward on this.
Im also glad that you understood my satire, whether you agreed with it or not, and did not take action except as to respond to me.
I find all of the above invaluable and proof positive that you, and CCP understand the issues involved here.

GF
o7
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#243 - 2017-02-13 16:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its up to individual persons what content they provide.
Rules only peripherally delineate those.

Its your own responsibility if you post good or crap content.


This is so obvious I don't know why you feel the need to repeat it, it was just as obvious the first time.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
However, on Reddit, that doesnt apply, because if enough people "dont like" it, its gone.
If enough people "like" it, its suddenly at the top.


You have a complete mental disconnect between a good post and one people like. This a problem you should try address. Perhaps your good/crap filter is broken?


Salvos Rhoska wrote:
For example:
-If Ì posted on reddit, "reddit is best" vs "reddit is crap", which do you think will get more support?


Make two threads here, one titled 'eve is best' and another titled 'eve is crap', and see how long they last. I can nearly guarantee one will be locked. Even if the mods stay impartial enough not to lock it, enjoy the replies the eve is crap thread gets.

What you put out comes around Salvos, it's how society works.

Edit: as for all the important stuff happening here, that is exactly what I want salvos. That is why I want to improve these forums, without straight cloning reddit, since reddit already exists we don't need two.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#244 - 2017-02-13 16:53:50 UTC
Please stop feeding the troll.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#245 - 2017-02-13 17:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
ISD Buldath wrote:
Sigh.

You were doing good, Salvos, but your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.

Folks, I'm leaving it alone so you see what we do and why.

Burn.


It was satire.

The posting I did above is commonplace on Reddit, and thanks to the rules of this forum and moderators like yourself, rarely occurs here.

That, exactly, is the difference between Reddit, and here.

The shiptoasters left this place, and moved to Reddit, where they can avoid moderation.
If you think its hard for you here, its nothing compared to the volume of crap on Reddit.
For a mod there, its like 24/7 sitting with your mouth open to receive the crap hundreds of posters flush down their toilet.

That is why Reddit needs a up/down censure/amplification system, because they are flooded with crap from those shiptoasters without sufficient moderators/means to forestall it.

People are suggesting Reddit as a better place, when infect it is exactly the place so overwhelmed with so much garbage that they cant handle it without giving it over to public means of censure.

Reddit itself, as a player run community, is fine. If that is what they want, let them have it. Nothing wrong with that.
But when it comes to Dev output/input it should happen here, on CCPS turf.

I have nothing against Devs engaging with players on 3rd party platforms, but all the important stuff should happen here.

I am glad to see Falcon is already aware of this, and that CCP is moving forward on this.
Im also glad that you understood my satire, whether you agreed with it or not, and did not take action except as to respond to me.
I find all of the above invaluable and proof positive that you, and CCP understand the issues involved here.

GF
o7


Well said, I will also say that the recent batch of ISD has been damn good and their reaction to you Salvos on this thread has shown that.

I don't care getting down voted by HTFU types, but what I do care about is that they can use this to sensor alternative views which are against their herd speak, or more accurately is deemed to be against their group speak. Salvos you are doing a good thing here to make sure it is noted. o7 and keep it up.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#246 - 2017-02-13 17:49:34 UTC
It's very telling that the first thing you think of with a user moderated system is being silenced by groupthink. Makes you imagine that this is what you would try to do with such a system. A big factor to the echo chamber on reddit is the sorting of posts, and the nested replies each has.

Really I think these forums have a different enough atmosphere to reddit not to worry too much about the possibility. Especially if threads remain sorted by recent posts, and the posts they contain remain in chronological order. In threads like these long discussions seem to happen naturally. We could have moderaters removing outright spiteful attacks, with potential bans enforced. For things not worthy of actual moderation we could have a user moderated system. CCP moderation would have to remain light so it's not overmoderated, but I don't think many would have a problem with personal vicious attacks being off the cards.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

mkint
#247 - 2017-02-13 18:01:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
ISD Buldath wrote:
Sigh.

You were doing good, Salvos, but your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.

Folks, I'm leaving it alone so you see what we do and why.

Burn.


It was satire.


1) Satire is usually funny.

2) You can't really satire yourself.

3) Ironic lack of self awareness is not satire.

@ISD, you're kinda my hero right now.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#248 - 2017-02-13 19:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
Mr Mieyli wrote:
It's very telling that the first thing you think of with a user moderated system is being silenced by groupthink. Makes you imagine that this is what you would try to do with such a system. A big factor to the echo chamber on reddit is the sorting of posts, and the nested replies each has.

Really I think these forums have a different enough atmosphere to reddit not to worry too much about the possibility. Especially if threads remain sorted by recent posts, and the posts they contain remain in chronological order. In threads like these long discussions seem to happen naturally. We could have moderaters removing outright spiteful attacks, with potential bans enforced. For things not worthy of actual moderation we could have a user moderated system. CCP moderation would have to remain light so it's not overmoderated, but I don't think many would have a problem with personal vicious attacks being off the cards.


Your first paragraph is a bit spiteful and sly, suggesting motives that neither I nor Salvos have, and the imagine is all in your head, it is not what we would do, the few who post on these forums against the group think, but what the group think already here and controlling these forums will do with such a system, we can see that by the sly insults such as applying motives to me or Salvos that we simply do not have.

Your second paragraph is more reasoned, but very few what I would call casual players come near this forum because all they get is insulted, having a user moderated system will remove their voices unless CCP Falcon in his design enable us carebears (as I get incorrectly defined as) or dissenting voices to see the down voted people first above all the echo chamber top posted stuff. If he does that then you can have your echo chamber and I can have mine. Better still to set up areas of the forums for the HTFU posters and another for the more carebear and casual players and never let them meet, to be blunt from my experience of discussing anything with the HTFU players it is a colossal waste of time anyway.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#249 - 2017-02-13 19:21:44 UTC
ISD Buldath wrote:


your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.



did we just cut close to the bone ?

one of the reasons the shift to reddit happened, not forgetting the fanboy reasons,, all the so called cool kids are posting on reddit these days so the lemmings follow, also CCP failure to see the change coming and failure to deal with it.

shifting to a third party site only says one thing, the site supplied isn't up to it.

if it was a corp and you noticed everyone in your corp was hanging out on another corps comms because yours sucked giant donkey balls you'd upgrade fast or lose a lot of people.

if mostly everything is happening on reddit then that frees up a lot of time that would have been spent moderating the posts here,
while on reddit the community does the work for you by down voting opinions into oblivion.

I must add over the years i've seen my fair share of self moderation on here. private messages between those that disagree with eachother, third parties stepping in, people calm down or just block but at least they had a public place to state their opinion.

seeing as we have falcons eyes on this target, can i ask that your good team and your good self keep people with disablities in mind during the redesign stage of these new forums coming soon.tm

colour blindness, dyslexia and so on. thanks.













Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#250 - 2017-02-13 19:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
I'll gladly eat my hat over the first paragraph then, things had become a bit heated but that was your first post in this thread so it was unreasonable of me. I was actually just about to edit my last post to add that groupthink is already here, and everywhere there are groups of people. I see you classify HTFU players as seperate to yourself, and I wouldn't classify myself as that. It's no different to you being called a carebear, but since you do feel there are seperate groups I would argue your group also suffers from groupthink.

I think the reasoned discussion here is far better than most internet comments, but I think that comes down to the types who play a game like eve in the first place. I think as long as threads and posts remain in the order they are, and replies continue to appear chronologically, this forum will retain a lot of it's character. Likes/dislikes would just be used by people that couldn't be bothered replying, and as such should have very little effect. It is possible to improve a user moderated system, such as limiting the amount of likes/dislikes a user can hand out daily for example. If a forum user didn't want to see replies below say -10, they could set that as an option.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#251 - 2017-02-13 19:54:15 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I'll gladly eat my hat over the first paragraph then, things had become a bit heated but that was your first post in this thread so it was unreasonable of me. I was actually just about to edit my last post to add that groupthink is already here, and everywhere there are groups of people. I see you classify HTFU players as seperate to yourself, and I wouldn't classify myself as that. It's no different to you being called a carebear, but since you do feel there are seperate groups I would argue your group also suffers from groupthink.

I think the reasoned discussion here is far better than most internet comments, but I think that comes down to the types who play a game like eve in the first place. I think as long as threads and posts remain in the order they are, and replies continue to appear chronologically, this forum will retain a lot of it's character. Likes/dislikes would just be used by people that couldn't be bothered replying, and as such should have very little effect. It is possible to improve a user moderated system, such as limiting the amount of likes/dislikes a user can hand out daily for example. If a forum user didn't want to see replies below say -10, they could set that as an option.


I sit between the two, for example someone calling for a totally safe hisec gets up my nose too. however I get accused of asking for that by the HTFU group, which I tend to find rather amusing. It is just something people project on others to dis-credit who they see as an enemy to their interests or how they see this game.

Anyway Salvos is something I have debated with, I have differing opinions to him in some areas and I have always found him pretty good to debate with.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#252 - 2017-02-13 20:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
[img]https://i.imgflip.com/1jk9qz.jpg[/img]


But in all honesty half of those who want the ISD gone are the same people who send most of the reports in.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#253 - 2017-02-13 20:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
ISD Max Trix wrote:
But in all honesty half of those who want the ISD gone are the same people who send most of the reports in.


The current batch of ISD do a very good and fair job, it was not always like this, one ISD in particular was used by certain people as part of their attacks on anyone with a different view. Thankfully he made it so obvious and they used him too much that CCP noticed. One of the posters involved in doing this has posted against Salvos in this thread.

Respect to you guys, keep it up, I think at this point that the forums are the best that they have ever been in terms of fair moderation.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#254 - 2017-02-13 20:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
ISD Max Trix wrote:
[img]https://i.imgflip.com/1jk9qz.jpg[/img]


But in all honesty half of those who want the ISD gone are the same people who send most of the reports in.


We don't want you gone, you big goof, we want a different kind of moderation.

It's like this. If I say "D1ck" you spend time and effort dealing with a trivial (and candidly inoffensive) evasion of the FORBIDDEN WORDS POLICY!!!!111

But if I derail a potentially interesting (or at least releven discussion) into being "Bears vs Gankers" thread number thirty eight thousand nine hundred and seventy three, or just sea-lion it to death, or acuse people of mental disorders rather than engage with their arguments (or examine my own), then nothing happens. At least, nothing that I care about.

The first is virtually irrelevent to the conduct and value of the forums. The latter is completely destructive and has reduced EVE-O General discussion (not to mention The Assembly Hall and Features And Ideas) into an open joke amongst the EVE community.

It's openly commented on other forums that any thread which might be going somewhere that someone doesn't like (nerfing this, buffing that, re-working the other) can be trivially shut down because you guys will lock a thread as soon as there's a tiny amount of poo-flinging. That's not me making an argument in favour of ignoring poo-flinging, it's an argument in favour of interdicting *bad posting*. I know that's harder to do than stopping people saying "d1ck a$$ t1tt1es" because you can't just look up a list of bad posting and stick to it, but there it is. The fact that there are essentially no meaningful consequences - and considerable rewards - for diverting threads, sealioning, arguments in obviously bad faith and just general badposting mean that the EVE-O forums are ignored by the most active parts of the community.

That's where r/eve and other forums win so heavily over this one. There are actual consequences, if only loss of sweet, sweet karma, to wrecking threads with the kind of posting which is not only accepted but practically the standard here.

Not to mention the, shall we say, inexplicably inconsistent moderation here that is perfectly content to see a forum member call me a liar and a sociopath to my face, but gets me a 6 week ban for suggesting that someone learn to read a little better since their reply indicated that they'd thought I'd stated the exact opposite of what I really said. I am, of course, 100% confident that said ban was absolutely nothing to do with any pent-up ISD member's resentment being expressed at the end my CSM tenure and CCP Dolan's aegis being lifted.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lucas Lucias
Combined Tactical Solutions PLC
Astral Battles
#255 - 2017-02-13 21:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
Malcannis, you are one of the posters who likes to throw in troll posts and insults, not so long ago you jumped into a debate and posted a reply to me suggesting that I was a paedophile in your example when making a point, I am sure you thought it was rather smart of you, but it showed you up as not that smart. I did not report it but I did point out how pathetic your post was in my reply. The ISD has been a bit better in trying to rein in some of the posting that people do to annoy others and derail debates by pushing the buttons to get angry replies, if you don't like it go to reddit.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#256 - 2017-02-13 22:24:55 UTC
Malcanis

Followed your post till the last paragraph. Then you lost me. ISD's can not ban or mute someone on the forums. We can how ever submit to CCP (the community team) what the player did/posted. At that point CCP makes the call on a ban or mute. Now if it's bad enough (such as someone spamming porn malware etc) we can request an emergency mute from the GM team. But we better have a damn good reason to go that route because Internal Affairs will be asking. So you accusation that the ISD banned you is false on its face, your issue there is with CCP.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Salvos Rhoska
#257 - 2017-02-14 08:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I can agree to follow rules that apply to everyone.
I dont agree to my content being silenced by a mob.
I dont agree to content being shoved down my throat by a mob.
I dont agree to censure/amplification of others based on what someone personally likes/dislikes.

Like/dislike is fine, as long as it has no systemic effect.
If you agree with a post, but cba to post, then "like" it to show support, and vice versa.
But if you want to have input beyond that, you have to get your hands dirty and post.

The simple act of clicking a +/- button should not have the weight to suppress content.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2017-02-14 08:41:59 UTC
ISD Buldath wrote:
Sigh.

You were doing good, Salvos, but your last few posts is the reason we still have responsibilities here.

Folks, I'm leaving it alone so you see what we do and why.

Burn.


I know the feeling.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#259 - 2017-02-14 09:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
I know the feeling.....


No, you dont. You arent an ISD.

Despite my active dislke of you and how you choose to argue, even if we had a mob vote, I would NEVER use it to suppress you.

I will argue and debate with you till the end, but I will NEVER try to have you, or your arguments, systemically suppressed. (unless you break rules).

I doubt you can say the same.

You would like nothing better than suppressing others with voting, instead of having to HTFU and fight the issues on their merits on the board.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#260 - 2017-02-14 09:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
Until now I've never put time into playing Eve. Sure back in the day I dipped my toe into the water with the old trial account but other commitments kept me from playing it for more than a short while. The one thing I did do ' back then' was read up on the forums. That was a bit of entertainment all on its own. Epic multi page threads on a myriad of subjects. Corporate intrigue, alliance warfare, double crosses, pirate action, gank fests, and scams all could be found. Most if not all were colorfully written posts with witty responses and many had counter posts also.

Things arent so busy for me now. With that I've got time to play this game. Remembering how much fun I had reading the forums I'd search em out while at lunch or on break. There's just no describing how disappointed I'm am . These days the forums seem so.....well to put it mildly ...bland. There's no flavor anymore. There's no real drama. Everyone is so ...civil. Seriously it makes no sense considering the idea of 'civility' ,particularly in this game , goes out the window as soon as you undock. I'm not talking RL racists, social or sexists comments. Just the good old fashion flames or posts sticking it to this weeks number one bad guy.

Now let me makes this abundantly clear I am in NO way questioning the rules on what can and can't be posted here on the Eve forums. It's thier space and their rules. Same for the moderators. You guys either get paid or volunteer to enforce the rules. That's all good by me.

That said , I can't believe that the complete win that was once in the forums just died. I thinks it's moved on to another place that wasn't so 'structured'. My question is ..where?

Respond here but if it's rule breaking then send me some info via email.

Thanks


it's all happening on reddit these days.. forums dead because of censorship