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Where did the fun go?

First post First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#201 - 2017-02-12 12:09:53 UTC
Im ok with up/down liking/voting, but not with that resulting in suppression/censor of the post, or changing its order in precedence.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#202 - 2017-02-12 12:34:44 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Im ok with up/down liking/voting, but not with that resulting in suppression/censor of the post, or changing its order in precedence.

Because you know your shiptoasts would get sucked into the abyss within minutes after posting? Lol

Joking aside, I agree with you, and I feel dirty.

A good, manual moderation would filter out profanity, racism, personal attacks and things like that, but leave opinions where they are. Here on the forums, you only need to post "Lel your a faggit CCP sux ISD Bulldath smells l1ke ded fish" into an otherwise perfectly valid if maybe not popular discussion to have the whole thread locked and sink into oblivion. However, downvoting posts is even worse. No matter how valid, well worded and respectful a post may be, all it would take to make sure it never gets seen by anyone is a handful of people who really don't like it.
Salvos Rhoska
#203 - 2017-02-12 13:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
1) Yes, my opinions and views are sometimes (often) that unpopular, and I have pissed off a great deal of self-interested persons by thwarting their plans. Funnily enough, I have nonetheless almost always agreed with your posts.

2) Standard CCP sourced moderation will naturally have to apply in a new system. There has to be rules and impartial moderation.

3) I propose that the new system includes a like/dislike system, so that persons not ready/able to post can show support/dissent for any one post. But I am against, as you are, like/dislike ratio changing the order of precedence of posts or suppressing/amplifying them.

4) Thus the concept of community moderation is carried, in that a post with opposition/support is represented that way by like/dislike numbers, but no actual censure/censor is systemically applied, which is CCPs moderation teams purview anyways for transgressions against common rules.

5) Im all for a more free format, but common rules must apply. CCP must remain the final decider. Players must not be allowed to suppress/amplify content systemically. A like/dislike option offers an oppurtinity to express support/dissent, without suppressing/amplifying views un/popular voting as on Reddit.

Thus readers have three choices. Either take the small effort of clicking like/dislike, or take the extended effort of arguing your position, or do both.
mkint
#204 - 2017-02-12 15:24:54 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:

No matter how valid, well worded and respectful a post may be, all it would take to make sure it never gets seen by anyone is a handful of people who really don't like it.

The system I've seen that seems appealing (I don't use a variety of forums often enough to know how it actually plays out on behalf of the community) is the strong negative vote posts get replaced a "this post falls below the threshold, click here to expand post, click here to change settings." It's doesn't straight up vanish a post, but after reading the first by a shiptoaster you can usually figure out to not bother reading the rest. And that would be the entire point of using an up/down vote system to improve content quality.

I'm not too interested in the sort order being changed. I think active threads keep the freshest content forward, where most voted threads can get stale. Maybe put some additional level of filters as well... like when Salvos (or once upon a time, Tom Gerard) inevitably gets all his posts hidden in every thread he posts in, maybe stop using his posts to bump a thread to the top.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Kaleb Mynwarra
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#205 - 2017-02-12 16:57:50 UTC
mkint wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:

No matter how valid, well worded and respectful a post may be, all it would take to make sure it never gets seen by anyone is a handful of people who really don't like it.

The system I've seen that seems appealing (I don't use a variety of forums often enough to know how it actually plays out on behalf of the community) is the strong negative vote posts get replaced a "this post falls below the threshold, click here to expand post, click here to change settings." It's doesn't straight up vanish a post, but after reading the first by a shiptoaster you can usually figure out to not bother reading the rest. And that would be the entire point of using an up/down vote system to improve content quality.

I'm not too interested in the sort order being changed. I think active threads keep the freshest content forward, where most voted threads can get stale. Maybe put some additional level of filters as well... like when Salvos (or once upon a time, Tom Gerard) inevitably gets all his posts hidden in every thread he posts in, maybe stop using his posts to bump a thread to the top.


I was weary of the votes having an effect on posts for reasons live already mentioned. That said, I can get behind this sort of action. It allows the contributors to have some say without censuring other people's opinions to oblivion.

"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost

"For 800 years ...." - some little green man

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#206 - 2017-02-12 19:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
This is pretty much what I would like to see. A like/dislike system which is purely cosmetic, and does not affect post sorting. We can take ideas from reddit without turning these forums into reddit. Threads should continue to be bumped by activity, and likes/dislikes can serve as a quick tool for people to decide whether they want to read that post.

I do like the idea of possibly hiding posts below a threshold but they should certainly be able to be viewed at a click. I also think it would help stop abuse, and keep with the spirit of eve, if it was possible for anyone to view who has liked/disliked a post.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#207 - 2017-02-12 19:53:40 UTC
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
Until now I've never put time into playing Eve. Sure back in the day I dipped my toe into the water with the old trial account but other commitments kept me from playing it for more than a short while. The one thing I did do ' back then' was read up on the forums. That was a bit of entertainment all on its own. Epic multi page threads on a myriad of subjects. Corporate intrigue, alliance warfare, double crosses, pirate action, gank fests, and scams all could be found. Most if not all were colorfully written posts with witty responses and many had counter posts also.

Things arent so busy for me now. With that I've got time to play this game. Remembering how much fun I had reading the forums I'd search em out while at lunch or on break. There's just no describing how disappointed I'm am . These days the forums seem so.....well to put it mildly ...bland. There's no flavor anymore. There's no real drama. Everyone is so ...civil. Seriously it makes no sense considering the idea of 'civility' ,particularly in this game , goes out the window as soon as you undock. I'm not talking RL racists, social or sexists comments. Just the good old fashion flames or posts sticking it to this weeks number one bad guy.

Now let me makes this abundantly clear I am in NO way questioning the rules on what can and can't be posted here on the Eve forums. It's thier space and their rules. Same for the moderators. You guys either get paid or volunteer to enforce the rules. That's all good by me.

That said , I can't believe that the complete win that was once in the forums just died. I thinks it's moved on to another place that wasn't so 'structured'. My question is ..where?

Respond here but if it's rule breaking then send me some info via email.

Thanks



You are not the first to bring this up. But the conclusion derived from previous discussions on this matter are settled on the idea that online web forums as "social media" have a lot of competition now and in a changing landscape a user forum such as this one is a dinosaur. There are newwr ways to communicate with other players, it's easier to set up voice coms, blogs, messaging, and finally, one need not come to forums to get answers. So given that the forums certainly are not as lively or interesting as they used to be. /r/eve at Reddit is fairly lively and full of shitpoast for example.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Salvos Rhoska
#208 - 2017-02-13 08:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
mkint wrote:
I think active threads keep the freshest content forward, where most voted threads can get stale. Maybe put some additional level of filters as well... like when Salvos (or once upon a time, Tom Gerard) inevitably gets all his posts hidden in every thread he posts in, maybe stop using his posts to bump a thread to the top.


I was weary of the votes having an effect on posts for reasons live already mentioned. That said, I can get behind this sort of action. It allows the contributors to have some say without censuring other people's opinions to oblivion.


Censuring is exactly what mkint wants, she even mentions the desire to censure me, specifically.
She proposes that some people would a) have their posts sytsemically hidden b) be unable to bump a thread.

All contributors should be considered equal, as we are all equal customers of EVE.
Contributions should be considered on their content, not on whom issues them.

If you consider the forum as an extension of the game itself, which it is in many ways:
-You can block communication from other players ingame, independently.
-You cannot, however, prevent other players from viewing that communication when made publicly.
-You also cant make someone else "hidden" in EVE from the rest of players, nor their actions "hidden" from other players

Im genuinely surprised and dismayed, that EVE players are even considering censuring other players.
It goes against everything this game and its community has always stood for.

I am categorically against anykind of systemic censure of players.
If you dont like someones content, block them, or ignore their posts, or defeat them in debate.
Same applies ingame, if you dont like someones content, either avoid them, or destroy them.

You cant expect the game/forum to make someone else's content systemically disappear, just cos you "dont like" it.

HTFU, adapt, and deal with it. That is the EVE way.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#209 - 2017-02-13 09:49:13 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:



Censuring is exactly what mkint wants, she even mentions the desire to censure me, specifically.
She proposes that some people would a) have their posts sytsemically hidden b) be unable to bump a thread.

All contributors should be considered equal, as we are all equal customers of EVE.
Contributions should be considered on their content, not on whom issues them.

If you consider the forum as an extension of the game itself, which it is in many ways:
-You can block communication from other players ingame, independently.
-You cannot, however, prevent other players from viewing that communication when made publicly.
-You also cant make someone else "hidden" in EVE from the rest of players, nor their actions "hidden" from other players

Im genuinely surprised and dismayed, that EVE players are even considering censuring other players.
It goes against everything this game and its community has always stood for.

I am categorically against anykind of systemic censure of players.
If you dont like someones content, block them, or ignore their posts, or defeat them in debate.
Same applies ingame, if you dont like someones content, either avoid them, or destroy them.

You cant expect the game/forum to make someone else's content systemically disappear, just cos you "dont like" it.

HTFU, adapt, and deal with it. That is the EVE way.


Censuring already happens and for good reason but for it to be used as a tool by the community should never happen!

The forums have rules and as long as you stay within them there isn't an issue, in over 10 years of posting and reading on these forums i've only had a couple of moments Roll where a GM had to step in.

everyones opinions should be allowed, even when and honestly more importatnly when you dont llike it.

for some i feel as if they need the word forum explained to them.

falcon is on the case anyways, so i'm looking forward to what he and the team comes up with.

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#210 - 2017-02-13 10:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
You know, for all the talk of how good moderation is there seems to be plenty of 'acceptable' threads which just get filled with smarmy replies belittling OP for their eve knowledge. Equally there are plenty of good OPs that end up filled with completely valueless posts which stay at the front of the forums on page 9 of useless arguments.

All moderation does is force this civil, yet hostile atmosphere and the long replies this forum is known for. So moderation without good rules on post quality doesn't work. The problem is how do you write a rule to say 'write good posts or it'll be deleted', that's why you need the mob.

In a mob, a moderate opinion is one held by most of the mob. If you share a somewhat controversial opinion, people might dislike it, but if you make the effort to write in a way that the mob understands they will listen to that opinion. Besides, even if disliked, your post is still there and can be viewed by anyone interested.

Edit: the phrase pissing in the wind comes to mind when I think about these forums.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Salvos Rhoska
#211 - 2017-02-13 12:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Snip.


CCP cant force people to post good content.
Its entirely up to each individual what they post, and their responsibility.

Just like in the game, it completely up to players what content they provide, whether good or bad.
Everything that doesn't break the rules, is allowed.

The reason moderation has become stricter on this board, is because some posters themselves took it too far, too often.
CCP has a responsibility to protect its staff and the integrity of its reputation, and of the forum and its participant players.

Your arguments on what mob "moderation" constitutes, is false.
Mobs dont moderate anything, they thrive instead on excess.
Mobs just want to shout louder than the other mob, to drown out their voice.
Whoever shouts loudest, wins.
Doesnt matter who has the better argument, just whom has the loudest supporters.

Definition of mob:
-a large or disorderly crowd; especially one bent on riotous or destructive action

I don't want 100 people making content hidden from me, cos they "don't like" it.
I also dont want 100 people forcing content down my throat, cos they "like" it.
Is that what you want?

I don't give a rat's anus what you do or don't like.
That is your problem, not mine.
Who are you to restrict someone else's content?

Go cry to mommy if someone's views are against yours, and you don't like them.
You want to try and hide in a mob, as one of many, with no personal accountability.

HTFU and engage the opposition on it. Adapt. Deal with it.
That is the EVE way.



A like/dislike button is fine, as a means for players to show support/dissent for a post, but that should not, in anyway shape or form, systemically change post/thread order, or cause hidden/amplified status of any players post.

If you cant be arsed to take the time to contribute content except by simply clicking like/dislike, then that's all you get.
If you want to have more more effect than that, you are going to have to put in the time/effort and get your hands dirty by posting content yourself.

PS: Your aphorism is wrong. Pissing into the wind is when you end up pissing all over yourself.
On Reddit, pissing into the wind, is when you try and direct your argument against mass mob opinion (the wind).
Whereas if you post in favor of the mass mob opinion (wind), it will carry your **** much, much farther and away from you.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#212 - 2017-02-13 13:17:55 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Snip.


CCP cant force people to people to post good content.
Its entirely up to each individual what they post.

Just like in the game, it completely up to players what content they provide.
Everything that doesn't break the rules, is allowed.

The reason moderation has become stricter on this board, is because some posters themselves took it too far, too often.
CCP has a responsibility to protect its staff and the integrity of its reputation, and of the forum and its participant players.

Your arguments on what mob "moderation" constitutes, is false.
Mobs dont moderate anything, they thrive instead on excess.
Mobs just want to shout louder than the other mob, to drown out their voice.
Whoever shouts loudest, wins.
Doesnt matter who has the better argument, just whom has the loudest supporters.

Definition of mob:
-a large or disorderly crowd; especially one bent on riotous or destructive action

I don't want 100 people making content hidden from me, cos they "don't like" it.
I also dont want 100 people forcing content down my throat, cos they "like" it.
Is that what you want?

I don't give a rat's anus what you do or don't like.
That is your problem, not mine.
Who are you to restrict someone else's content?

Go cry to mommy if someone's views are against yours, and you don't like them.
You want to try and hide in a mob, as one of many, with no personal accountability.

HTFU and engage the opposition on it. Adapt. Deal with it.
That is the EVE way.



A like/dislike button is fine, as a means for players to show support/dissent for a post, but that should not, in anyway shape or form, systemically change post/thread order, or cause hidden/amplified status of any players post.

If you cant be arsed to take the time to contribute content except by simply clicking like/dislike, then that's all you get.
If you want to have more more effect than that, you are going to have to put in the time/effort and get your hands dirty by posting content yourself.

PS: Your aphorism is wrong. Pissing in the wind is when you make a stupid decision and end up pissing all over yourself.
The correct analogy, is pissing into an ocean of ****, and that is certainly more true on Reddit, than here.


The players have HTFU, dealt with it and adapted: they have overwhelmingly shifted to a different venue to discuss the game they have in common.

It's time you to.do a bit of STFU, listening and understanding, because you refuse to accept that this has happened or understand the reasons why.

I'll give you a hint though. It's far harder to derail a discussion there with sealioning or diversion into yet another bears vs gankers mudfight.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#213 - 2017-02-13 13:23:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
CCP has a responsibility to protect its staff and the integrity of its reputation, and of the forum and its participant players.

Really? Is this why these forums are so quiet and CCP are posting on reddit, where they cannot protect either their reputation or their staff?

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Your arguments on what mob "moderation" constitutes, is false.
Mobs dont moderate anything, they thrive instead on excess.
Mobs just want to shout louder than the other mob, to drown out their voice.
Whoever shouts loudest, wins.
Doesnt matter who has the better argument, just whom has the loudest supporters.

Definition of mob:
-a large or disorderly crowd; especially one bent on riotous or destructive action

Mob was your word, I prefer to think of it as a hivemind. Any poster can post their ideas, and everyone else is free to judge those ideas. Yes a general consensus emerges from the hivemind over time, but this is just human culture. I find it hard to understand when you say it doesn't matter who has the better argument, an argument is where you try to convince the other side of your views. If you present your views in a good way, if you present a good argument, you have no problem.

You either don't seem to understand crowd moderation or have a reason to purposely misrepresent it. Moderation is all about limiting excess or extremes, and if you present an excessive/extreme view, the crowd won't react well to it.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I don't want 100 people making content hidden from me, cos they "don't like" it.
I also dont want 100 people forcing content down my throat, cos they "like" it.
Is that what you want?

No.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
A like/dislike button is fine, as a means for players to show support/dissent for a post, but that should not, in anyway shape or form, systemically change post/thread order, or cause hidden/amplified status of any players post.

I'm 100% agreed that post order, and especially thread order, should remain as is. However hiding a massively disliked post behind a button doesn't really affect anyone. It just saves people from wasting time reading pointless posts, unless they want to click the button and read it. I've already suggested that in keeping with the spirit of eve, the people behind the likes/dislikes should be viewable to anyone. That way if goons decide to try bury a post, it would be obvious to anyone who bothered to check.

You say again and again that I only want to hide in a crowd, yet here I still am discussing this with you. The insults against my character are not appreciated, and quite possibly are the very reason you are afraid of crowd moderation.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#214 - 2017-02-13 13:28:41 UTC
Dev re-participation in these forums. First and foremost.
I could care less about the likes and/or dislikes.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salvos Rhoska
#215 - 2017-02-13 13:44:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The players have HTFU, dealt with it and adapted: they have overwhelmingly shifted to a different venue to discuss the game they have in common.

It's time you to.do a bit of STFU, listening and understanding, because you refuse to accept that this has happened or understand the reasons why.

I'll give you a hint though. It's far harder to derail a discussion there with sealioning or diversion into yet another bears vs gankers mudfight.


Oh, I certainly understand why.

Its to:
1) Extricate Devs from this moderated system into a 3rd party system, so as to **** in their ear for personal advantage.
2) To avoid the restrictions here on ship-poasting.
3) To shift discussion from a regulated format based on content, to one based on mass/loud opinion and censure.

GF and well done for succeeding.
You (generally, not you specifically) have managed to AWOX Devs off this board, to one not controlled by CCP, but by players.
I genuinely, no reservations, applaud the success of this Ops.
It is worthy of what EVE players are famous for.

This is not the first time this has happened in any number of MMOs or competitive games.
Usually its cos the official boards are so bad that using them is a huge pain.
Sometimes its cos players have created a site that has so many more beneficial functions and operation.
Occasionally it involves little private cliques on private networks.

But the result, and the purpose, is always the same as listed numerically above.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#216 - 2017-02-13 13:46:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dev re-participation in these forums. First and foremost.
I could care less about the likes and/or dislikes.


Devs go where the players are. The devs are busy folk and want to be as effective as possible when they try communicate with us. So if we want the devs back here we need to figure out how to make this the place to be, dislikes are just one option which honestly I stole from reddit. Reddit already exists though, so we don't need another, we need to improve on what reddit does in a way that makes sense for eve players.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#217 - 2017-02-13 14:16:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The players have HTFU, dealt with it and adapted: they have overwhelmingly shifted to a different venue to discuss the game they have in common.

It's time you to.do a bit of STFU, listening and understanding, because you refuse to accept that this has happened or understand the reasons why.

I'll give you a hint though. It's far harder to derail a discussion there with sealioning or diversion into yet another bears vs gankers mudfight.


Oh, I certainly understand why.

Its to:
1) Extricate Devs from this moderated system into a 3rd party system, so as to **** in their ear for personal advantage.
2) To avoid the restrictions here on ship-poasting.
3) To shift discussion from a regulated format based on content, to one based on mass/loud opinion and censure.

GF and well done for succeeding.
You (generally, not you specifically) have managed to AWOX Devs off this board, to one not controlled by CCP, but by players.
I genuinely, no reservations, applaud the success of this Ops.
It is worthy of what EVE players are famous for.

This is not the first time this has happened in any number of MMOs or competitive games.
Usually its cos the official boards are so bad that using them is a huge pain.
Sometimes its cos players have created a site that has so many more beneficial functions and operation.
Occasionally it involves little private cliques on private networks.

But the result, and the purpose, is always the same as listed numerically above.



This right here is a display of the inability to recognize uncomfortable truth. Reddit (and twitter and facebook and the other venues the CCP employees use more than these forums) aren't some conspiracy. NO ONE MAKES THE CCP GUYS USE THEM instead of this place.

Those places/venues/methods are just better Measurably better. For example with Reddit I was able to easily see a picture of the Chimera Redesign, was easily able to find info about an in game news event, and easily found info regarding probing and dscanning. Here I'd have had to know exaclty where to go for that info

LOOK (if the truth does not scare you) at the front page of this forum section. Compared to the useful info on R/EVe we have:

-1 thread from an idiot complaining about having 5 characters training (something that is completely optional

-Another guy complaining that he didn't get a commander spawn in syndicate.

-A guyy saying "Bye and Good Riddence" in gank complain thread number 9,872,418

-A "think of the new players" thread that is actually a "I'm a veteran player who died stupidly in a gate camp because I'm stupid, nerf gate camps naow!" thread. BTW this thread has the most replies

-And a "what's wrong with EVE" complaint thread.

NOTHING on the front page of this forum section is in the least bit useful or informative. It's all complaints or spergy bullshit. Spergy bullshit that would have been down-voted on reddit. And it's here that we get to the REAL crux of the matter, the real reasons, reason EVE forum partisans can't understand because they are, well, partisan.

These forums only provide entertainment to adult man-children who take video games way too seriously. The provide a false sense of "communicating with the powers that be" for unhappy people who can't stop playing a video game they fundamentally dislike. It provides a venue for people who enjoy watching over-sensitive people (who can't cope with the arduous task of surviving in a spaceship video game) suffer in public.

(and I'll admit right here, that last sentence is about me, I do actually enjoy watching people melt down and blame everyone but themselves because they themselves can't play a video game right. I outta become catholic so I can go to confession for this lol).


Someone who really cared about the situation would strive to discover the true reasons for this forums unpopularity with everyone (not just the developers). But as in real life, so on the internet, and it's more gratifying to say that it's come sort of evil conspiracy than to look at the real reasons.



Salvos Rhoska
#218 - 2017-02-13 14:24:43 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
So if we want the devs back here we need to figure out how to make this the place to be, dislikes are just one option which honestly I stole from reddit.


Up/down-voting exists on Reddit, primarily due to the lack of moderation/rules vs the overwhelming, incessant flood of shiptoasting.

The mods cant handle the volume of shiptoasting, so they outsource it to "down/up" voting instead.
Its a cheap and expedient recourse, but is NOT moderation, it is opinionated censure.

As to why Devs seem to prefer Reddit, thats up to CCP to ask their employees.

My heuristic deduction of that, is they prefer:
-The lack of direct CCP oversight of their behavior there.
-That Reddit moderators defend them like Guest Gods.
-The sycophantic adulation by players trying to curry favors/influence.
-Dealing with significant ingame entities whom have chosen to move their weight to Reddit.
-Reddits largely "140 character" nature, where posts are shorter, and their prominence is defined by the mob.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#219 - 2017-02-13 14:26:29 UTC
Let's not start comparing the quality of Reddit/EVE thread topics and posts to the EVE Forums. Just because there may be less whining on Reddit does not necessarily mean there aren't still plenty of junk threads...

* Gorski Car finally bends the knee...
* Just in case you forgot...
* This one time my corp abducted a new bro...
* Monday trash talk thread...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Salvos Rhoska
#220 - 2017-02-13 14:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jenn aSide wrote:
Snip


Ok then.

The players are there, the Devs are there, and according to you, its better in every way.

CCP, shutdown this forum, and we all move to the Reddit.

Close it all down, except as an archive..

Reddit is better in everyway, the players and the Devs are there.
Shut it down and stop wasting money on this forum.