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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#641 - 2016-10-20 14:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
You can't... CANNOT put up a POS nor a Structure in Trade hubs or starter systems...

You know this, right?

Whilst every system surrounding Jita it littered with Citadels...
YeuxVerts Belle
Danger Zone.
Brave Collective
#642 - 2016-10-20 14:56:22 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
You can't... CANNOT put up a POS nor a Structure in Trade hubs or starter systems...

You know this, right?


Of course i do. That's what makes stations worth it there.

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#643 - 2016-10-20 14:59:00 UTC
I edited my post, but CCP doesn't allow Structures and POSs internationally in Jita, but surrounding Jita is littered with Structures...

My last count was Perimeter having 9 Astrahus' and 3-4 Foritzars...
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#644 - 2016-10-20 15:54:58 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
You folks go round in circles.
- I want to build stuff!
- Here is your EC
- But 104 rigs too difficult!
- Buy XL
- But I'm poor!
- Use public
- But my freedom!
- Use stations
- Inefficient!
- POS is your choice then
- Outdated!
- Go buy items in the market and deal with it
- But I want to build stuff!

Not empty quoting.

Mai Khumm, what's your point?
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#645 - 2016-10-20 17:54:42 UTC
If you missed it, then my sincerest apologies...
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#646 - 2016-10-20 19:38:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm going through everything and I'll be making a big Q&A post with answers at some point soon.



Soon, he said.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#647 - 2016-10-20 21:58:15 UTC
Kinizsi wrote:
I think you are missing a key point.

Citadel services go offline if they are not fuelled, but the structure still protects all your asset, not just invul timers but with the asset safety mechanism.

If you don't use a service, you don't fuel it. You don't need to fuel the service only if you are building something, not 24/7 regardless of it's usage. So if you are not in building something, you let the fuel run out, or just grab the fuel from the fuel bay, and turn it offline stopping all fuel consumption, but still protecting your stuff.

Doesn't work for citadels, because the service module has a startup consumption of 72h worth of fuel. This you have to waste every time you startup the service. CCP wants to prevent exactly what you describe, that people fuel the service only when needed.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Kinizsi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#648 - 2016-10-21 10:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
One more question:

I have an industry job going, meanwhile the EC get reinforced (hopefully the industry job pause after armor reinforcement, when industry module get offline...)

When I see that the EC gona go down casue the enemy is hitting the hull layer on final timer.......


Can I cancel the manufacture job, and this way can I deny any loot drop from my industry job?
kai oh
THE ENEMY FLEET
#649 - 2016-10-21 11:01:11 UTC
I have simple POS.

Caldari Control Tower Small
- Research Laboratory
- Design Laboratory
- Equipment Assembly Array

To replace this, What should I do?

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70592/1/Engineering_Complexes_-_Rigs.jpg
I think it is too divided.
Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#650 - 2016-10-21 11:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
Last number i ran allow to conclude this (vide infra) regarding EC versus NPC station.
Those calculations concern only what i'm producing with a casual playstyle (not min/maxing everything).

Hypothesis 1 = base fuel cost 30 block per h (as suggested by SISI)
10 slot production (solo guy).
ECs wins versus NPC station by roughly 170 M every month.
Medium ECs need to stay alive for about 4 months to cover its inevitable loss or 11 months (adding not being able to produce during 11 days (citadel mechanics-worst case).

Hypothesis 2 = base fuel cost 60 block per h (intial dev blog)
For 10 slot production NPC station remains better in all cases.
So a minimum of 20 slot production is required (solo guy with two indy characters).
In this case, ECs wins by roughly 340 M every month.
Medium ECs need to stay alive for about 2 months to cover its inevitable loss or 9 months (adding not being able to produce during 11 days (citadel mechanics-worst case).

Hypothesis 3 = using public EC (0 fuel cost), with
- 3.6 % ME bonus
- 5% system cost index + no facility tax,
- one 10 slots character
Medium ECs are more cost effective than a NPC station (in 1.5 % system index) by 150 M every month. In this case being unable to produce for 11 days because of assets being trapped, it require the foreign ECs to be alive for 12 months without interruption to compensate.

Side note: At 60 block/h for EC, a small POS remains better. At 30 block/h the ECs becomes better due to bonus to ME. If you are considering only productionand forget about science jobs, then you work with 15 block/h and EC is way ahead by 280 M per month.
Comparing the two production system:
1) POS in high sec: it was risky to place prod job with prod time longer than 2 two days in case of war dec. But at least you could save your POS by unanchoring on time
2) ECs: Now you can run jobs for 6 days safely. But you will loose time to time one EC. That's the new risk.
I see now that both prod system have their advantages and drawbacks.

Condition for me to own a medium ECs on a single character with 30 fuel block per hour: be able to cover the costs (relative to NPC station) of setting one medium EC in max two months. That sounds arbitrary, it is just what i would accept to risk. It imply I need the medium EC to run with total 16 blocks/h max to try.


Suggestions to CCP devs:


Fuel cost becomes rapidly irrelevant as soon as the number of character using the ECs is increasing.
One thing that would make ECs more accessible (in terms of owning and using one) to everyone is to create a modifier of fuel cost which depends on citadel size like previous POS system.

For a medium size i would like this modifier to reach at least the 16 block/h target.
Large size = no modifier.
XL size= i don't know but increasing modifier. (anyway it doesn't matter that much here since high number of character using XL size make fuel cost negligible because of ME bonus).

Other option is to reduce the investment needed to buy a medium EC.
Or create a low price small size ECs with only 1 service module with low cost rig.
But I guess this will probably never happen if the idea is to push players to band together.

Conclusion

- The key finding of my excel sheet is that even if the fuel cost is dramatically reduced it doesn't change the figure if your assets get trapped. The cost of not producing during 11 days (adding service going offline for one week+ safety mechanic) is absolutely disastrous. Never, ever start jobs during more than 6 days (the invulnerability window). If you take the risk and the worse happen, it is critical to pull out any asset to safety (means cancel your prod and restart it straight in other ECs/station) before the ECs get reinforced to armor.
- With the base fuel cost at 30 blocks per hours and using 20 slots at 66% prod capacity, it cover the cost of losing one medium EC in one month. Passing this duration, the rest becomes "profit" versus NPC station. That sounds acceptable. So two indys characters seems to be a minimum to make it work with a single account. But let's wait the final number...
- For only one character producing, the best rational choice to minimize risks will be to use NPC stations.
- Public EC is a valid option to consider, but keep in mind :
- 1) If ever the system index of the public EC goes above 5% (roughly just 20 players needed), NPC station in 1.5% index system remains better. -> We need public ECs everywhere to make it interesting.
- 2) If you can't make proper use of the ME bonus on EC because the number of materials used per job is not high enough, stick to NPC station.
- 3) you are 100% sure to remove your assets from a public EC before armor reinforcement (and the owner will never screw you with docking right)

My personal shift will be to install an ECs in system with low index and not too far from hub to reduce transport cost. I will use only the production service at 15 block/h and do science jobs in NPC station. Probably the most efficient risk/reward ratio.

About T3 production, the calculation should evaluate how much profit per month you expect with your current prod slots compared to not producing T3. With this value, then you need to calculate how long it takes to cover the loss of your EC to decide if it is worth the risk.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#651 - 2016-10-21 14:13:45 UTC
Does your calculation assume round the clock 7 days a week full utilization of the 10 slots? What happens on 50% utilization?

I'm my own NPC alt.

Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#652 - 2016-10-21 14:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
Tipa Riot wrote:
Does your calculation assume round the clock 7 days a week full utilization of the 10 slots? What happens on 50% utilization?


Calculation was performed with 2/3 of utilization (i'm casual) but fuel cost was calculated with on-lining services full time.
Going from 66 to 100% utilization mitigate the issue:
150M (66%) vs 450M (100%) per month as compared to NPC station for 10 slots and 30 fuel block per hour.

50% gives only 30M per month difference -> go to NPC station or find a way to optimize offlining service

Calculations of "how long my ECs needed to be alive if ever my assets become trapped" was done with the assumption of 20% profit.
If you make more, things get worse.
RainReaper
Bras-Tek Industries
Nefatari Union
#653 - 2016-10-21 21:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
...after having been on SISI today and seen the new numbers I have to say im immensly disapointed...
The aparent new numbers of 5 fuel blocks for the research services have now been chagned to 20.
So we are back on to what the dev blog stated.
And to top it of, the Raitaru dosent even have enough powergrid/cpu to use the FEV defencive modules it could slot.
Meaning that its layout of 1 launcher + 2 extra highs, 2 mids and 1 low cant all be used att the SAME TIME.
Meaning that this thing is so IMMENSLY WEAK that you have to be a BIG GROUP in order to even be able to DEFEND A STRUCTURE MEANT FOR A SMALL GROUP.
Meaning I might as well go for a FLIPING AZBEL if I wanted to have even a remotely good chance to even think about being able to defend it. but then again that thing is meant for decent sized groups and not SMALL GROUPS.
The Raitaru looks cool, but its nothing but a mistake.
AND IT HURTS ME IMMENSLY TO SAY THAT!
Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#654 - 2016-10-22 07:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
RainReaper wrote:
...after having been on SISI today and seen the new numbers I have to say im immensly disapointed...
The aparent new numbers of 5 fuel blocks for the research services have now been chagned to 20.
So we are back on to what the dev blog stated.
And to top it of, the Raitaru dosent even have enough powergrid/cpu to use the FEV defencive modules it could slot.
Meaning that its layout of 1 launcher + 2 extra highs, 2 mids and 1 low cant all be used att the SAME TIME.
Meaning that this thing is so IMMENSLY WEAK that you have to be a BIG GROUP in order to even be able to DEFEND A STRUCTURE MEANT FOR A SMALL GROUP.
Meaning I might as well go for a FLIPING AZBEL if I wanted to have even a remotely good chance to even think about being able to defend it. but then again that thing is meant for decent sized groups and not SMALL GROUPS.
The Raitaru looks cool, but its nothing but a mistake.
AND IT HURTS ME IMMENSLY TO SAY THAT!


Well i don't think it was really designed to be defended by small groups.
It's like for ships. As soon you press the undock button consider it is already blown.
Then you have to take into account the cost of losing one regularly in profit calculations.
Now, those calculation are even more probabilistic !


Concerning your last update on fuel cost, i'm also sad...
Erika Mizune
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#655 - 2016-10-22 12:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Erika Mizune
Are these going to be able to seen on your overview like you can with Citadels or do you have to scan them down like the current pos's?

I'm not vibing on that last image on the devblog where you can physical see a titan being built, giving others intel on what's going on instead of how it is now where you have to actually work to get that intel.

Former DJ & Manager of Eve Radio | Blog | Sounds of New Eden | Twitch | Twitter

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#656 - 2016-10-22 12:05:53 UTC
Erika Mizune wrote:
Are these going to be able to seen on your overview like you can with Citadels or do you have to scan them down like the current pos's?

I'm not vibing on that last image on the devblog where you can physical see a titan being built, giving others intel on what's going on instead of how it is now where you have to actually work to get that intel.

If they're a Freeport, then they show up on your overview just like Stations. If they're private, they show up in the background just like anomalies...
Erika Mizune
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#657 - 2016-10-22 12:09:12 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Erika Mizune wrote:
Are these going to be able to seen on your overview like you can with Citadels or do you have to scan them down like the current pos's?

I'm not vibing on that last image on the devblog where you can physical see a titan being built, giving others intel on what's going on instead of how it is now where you have to actually work to get that intel.

If they're a Freeport, then they show up on your overview just like Stations. If they're private, they show up in the background just like anomalies...


Alright, thanks! :)

Former DJ & Manager of Eve Radio | Blog | Sounds of New Eden | Twitch | Twitter

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#658 - 2016-10-22 13:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
RainReaper wrote:
...after having been on SISI today and seen the new numbers I have to say im immensly disapointed...
The aparent new numbers of 5 fuel blocks for the research services have now been chagned to 20.
So we are back on to what the dev blog stated.
And to top it of, the Raitaru dosent even have enough powergrid/cpu to use the FEV defencive modules it could slot.
Meaning that its layout of 1 launcher + 2 extra highs, 2 mids and 1 low cant all be used att the SAME TIME.
Meaning that this thing is so IMMENSLY WEAK that you have to be a BIG GROUP in order to even be able to DEFEND A STRUCTURE MEANT FOR A SMALL GROUP.
Meaning I might as well go for a FLIPING AZBEL if I wanted to have even a remotely good chance to even think about being able to defend it. but then again that thing is meant for decent sized groups and not SMALL GROUPS.
The Raitaru looks cool, but its nothing but a mistake.
AND IT HURTS ME IMMENSLY TO SAY THAT!

So they took one step forward, then 3 steps back!

The Vulnerability Timers for Citadels and Complexes should be switched based solely on the defensive capabilities of the Structures itself.

Otherwise you'll never see Complexes outside of Highsec and very Deep Nullsec.

The fueling is a little too much. They were perfect for Citadels, but a little much for the Manufacturing ones for Complexes. At the very least, cut fuel usage by 50%!

I could overlook the Rigs in exchange for reduced fueling....
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#659 - 2016-10-22 18:39:02 UTC
So almost 2 weeks of feedback on one of the biggest industry changes and no dev comment or response...thats really sad. Sad

Current state of engineering complexes is pretty bad - vulnerability windows too long, very few defensive capabilities and little to no benefit over POS/NPC station...
Nfynity Prime
Nfynity Prime Corp
Shadow of Nfynity
#660 - 2016-10-22 19:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nfynity Prime
RainReaper wrote:
...after having been on SISI today and seen the new numbers I have to say im immensly disapointed...
The aparent new numbers of 5 fuel blocks for the research services have now been chagned to 20.
So we are back on to what the dev blog stated.
And to top it of, the Raitaru dosent even have enough powergrid/cpu to use the FEV defencive modules it could slot.
Meaning that its layout of 1 launcher + 2 extra highs, 2 mids and 1 low cant all be used att the SAME TIME.
Meaning that this thing is so IMMENSLY WEAK that you have to be a BIG GROUP in order to even be able to DEFEND A STRUCTURE MEANT FOR A SMALL GROUP.
Meaning I might as well go for a FLIPING AZBEL if I wanted to have even a remotely good chance to even think about being able to defend it. but then again that thing is meant for decent sized groups and not SMALL GROUPS.
The Raitaru looks cool, but its nothing but a mistake.
AND IT HURTS ME IMMENSLY TO SAY THAT!


These complexes are completely worthless again to all but the biggest corps. They had it right with the research and invention modules at 5 blocks. Even though the 15 blocks for the manufacturing was still high, it was going in the right direction. They were still nowhere as good as a POS, but at least the fuel costs were more in alignment with a medium POS. Now I guess it's back to the NPC station for everything for a very large percentage of us, since 20 blocks for all modules is insane. Why would I want 3 times the fuel cost for reduced functionality and increased risk and vulnerability?