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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#1241 - 2016-09-07 12:37:02 UTC
Unless we are both blind, they just deleted your idea and any post quoting it. And seems like they do not even bother to explain why. The fun part is, the last posts relating to the discussion remain without the context. Well played CCP, well played.



Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#1242 - 2016-09-07 12:55:15 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Did we just lose a whole bunch of posts from today (7 sept 2016) in this thread ?
Apparently, yes.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1243 - 2016-09-07 13:02:51 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Unless we are both blind, they just deleted your idea and any post quoting it. And seems like they do not even bother to explain why. The fun part is, the last posts relating to the discussion remain without the context. Well played CCP, well played.




This does not appear to be quite so sinister. The long text about what I think would be better approach and why which I submitted on 2nd Sept is still here (posts 1063, 1064 and 1065) as other posts where the merits and dangers of the idea have been discussed.

It just seems like all posts in this thread from early 7th Sept up to about DT have been lost somewhere. In total about 2 pages.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#1244 - 2016-09-07 13:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Starblaze
Well, the whole post where you present the 75 mil sp idea and most of the following discussion are gone, which in regards to the forum timestamp took place last evening / night, while the end (at least the end of the related discussion I participated in ) still is there. So, not all of them are gone, they have been selectivly removed.

No matter if I agree with your idea or not, that is not a way to treat customers who post and discuss feedback in a thread that was created for that purpose in the first place.

And then people wonder why a lot of ppl hate the eve forums and rather go to reddit O_o.
Crack Spawn
Doomheim
#1245 - 2016-09-07 13:46:01 UTC
people people this is not your game never has been this is merely a game you play if CCP allow you to if you have negative or contradictory thoughts not in line with CCP its lost in a harmless data purge or in layman's turns a computer error..

No evil ISD or CCP employee would remove posts that I'm certain of, so who's exited that Santa's only 109 sleeps away and 220 till the Easter bunny returns oh boy oh boy Roll
Trepalluim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1246 - 2016-09-07 14:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Trepalluim
Quote:
Alphas will also train skills at a reduced rate compared to Omegas.


Do we know yet what will be the -Fixed or not- rate and what will be able to affect it ?

if i have a complete +5 implant set will i have to downgrade to whatever is allowed by my skills once converted from Omega?
will it still work, be disabled or the speed be downgraded to whatever the skills allow?
i could use a jump clone, however since there is no mention of infomorph psychology i cant even go to my +3 set if i want to.

if i have the max (10) JC's already installed, will i simply not be able to jump to them or will they be destroyed ?
alternatively can i still jump to a JC in the same citadel i'm located in (and not trigger the JC timer of 18 hrs)?

will cybernetics III allow me to Use the complete list of implants Contained in Cybernetics III, or only Tech 1 items?
http://pastebin.com/HZa2ztA5
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1247 - 2016-09-07 18:38:29 UTC
Trepalluim wrote:
Quote:
Alphas will also train skills at a reduced rate compared to Omegas.


Do we know yet what will be the -Fixed or not- rate and what will be able to affect it ?

if i have a complete +5 implant set will i have to downgrade to whatever is allowed by my skills once converted from Omega?
will it still work, be disabled or the speed be downgraded to whatever the skills allow?
i could use a jump clone, however since there is no mention of infomorph psychology i cant even go to my +3 set if i want to.

if i have the max (10) JC's already installed, will i simply not be able to jump to them or will they be destroyed ?
alternatively can i still jump to a JC in the same citadel i'm located in (and not trigger the JC timer of 18 hrs)?

will cybernetics III allow me to Use the complete list of implants Contained in Cybernetics III, or only Tech 1 items?
http://pastebin.com/HZa2ztA5



While I am not a dev I can try to answer some of these questions based on how I understand the current game mechanics.

Jump clones should function OK for Omegas that have dropped to Alphas - the skill is needed to install the clone, once created the additional clones are accessible unless you destroy them deliberately. However, the jump timer would be 24h for Alphas as the time reduction skills is not in the current list. Attribute implants would me irrelevant for Omegas that have dropped Alphas for most practical purposes because as it stands currently the Alphas have access to only about 5 mil SP regardless of the amout SP the Omega has - the skills in the list are pretty basic so vast majority of existing subscribes would have them already at levels above what Alpha can access so they would have no skill they could train in Alpha state. Cybernetics III should allow to a full list of implants that need it - in the devblog no additional constraints have been mentioned.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1248 - 2016-09-07 18:43:17 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Well, the whole post where you present the 75 mil sp idea and most of the following discussion are gone, which in regards to the forum timestamp took place last evening / night, while the end (at least the end of the related discussion I participated in ) still is there. So, not all of them are gone, they have been selectivly removed.

No matter if I agree with your idea or not, that is not a way to treat customers who post and discuss feedback in a thread that was created for that purpose in the first place.

And then people wonder why a lot of ppl hate the eve forums and rather go to reddit O_o.



Hmmm ... time for a dramatic reddit thread? ;)

I have no notifications about being moderated or warning about breaking any rules. Although I do find it very annoying that the posts I spent several hours typing up have vanished in that manner. As it stands I just assume some technical glitch as I really do not believe the CCP staff would just remove constructive posts in this manner in an official feedback collecting thread for such a significant change to the game mechanics.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1249 - 2016-09-07 18:50:23 UTC
I think I found a way to break it really good:

Lots if Intel Compute Sticks. Those aren't very cheap in large quantities, or very powerful, but they are fully functional x86-64 computers. They can wi-fi, or they might stream over USB. Instead of VM windows, you'd have remote desktop sessions. They should be powerful enough to run a few frames per second, which is enough for mining or watching local.
Because these actually are separate computers, they almost certainly wouldn't trip any current anti-multiboxing measure.

A signature :o

Trepalluim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1250 - 2016-09-07 19:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Trepalluim
Carniflex wrote:

While I am not a dev I can try to answer some of these questions based on how I understand the current game mechanics.
Jump clones should function OK for Omegas that have dropped to Alphas - the skill is needed to install the clone, once created the additional clones are accessible unless you destroy them deliberately. However, the jump timer would be 24h for Alphas as the time reduction skills is not in the current list. Attribute implants would me irrelevant for Omegas that have dropped Alphas for most practical purposes because as it stands currently the Alphas have access to only about 5 mil SP regardless of the amout SP the Omega has - the skills in the list are pretty basic so vast majority of existing subscribes would have them already at levels above what Alpha can access so they would have no skill they could train in Alpha state. Cybernetics III should allow to a full list of implants that need it - in the devblog no additional constraints have been mentioned.


I apreciate the effort however i'm looking slightly deeper than that.
Going from clone A to clone B Now requires one to leave it's current body behind (read install a new jump clone).
That may require the skill or destroy the body i'm leaving behind.
There is still the intra-citadel jump case.. timer or not .

so for these new clones states i'm reading if the skill allows it, i can use it.

regardless of what skills one has or doesnt, i'm still curious on that implant / training speed topic since if i drop sub to train "insert race my original race" for free, it will be faster to do so if i have implants, i'm not going to list the situations this can happend in. I'm bringing it up since this is a feedback thread.

Also that character sheet in the devblog looks Horrible and i dont want that on any of my states.. EVER!
The present UI for skills/character sheet is AWSOME
all the change needed is a new radiobox that says : "only show allowed for current state"
dont touch it beyond that PLEASE.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1251 - 2016-09-07 22:12:08 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
As it stands I just assume some technical glitch as I really do not believe the CCP staff would just remove constructive posts in this manner in an official feedback collecting thread for such a significant change to the game mechanics.


That's funny...

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1252 - 2016-09-08 01:57:46 UTC
If something has been removed by a moderator I've always seen a post by them talking about why.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1253 - 2016-09-08 10:02:09 UTC
Trepalluim wrote:


I apreciate the effort however i'm looking slightly deeper than that.
Going from clone A to clone B Now requires one to leave it's current body behind (read install a new jump clone).
That may require the skill or destroy the body i'm leaving behind.
There is still the intra-citadel jump case.. timer or not .

so for these new clones states i'm reading if the skill allows it, i can use it.

regardless of what skills one has or doesnt, i'm still curious on that implant / training speed topic since if i drop sub to train "insert race my original race" for free, it will be faster to do so if i have implants, i'm not going to list the situations this can happend in. I'm bringing it up since this is a feedback thread.

Well, alphas are limited to just hop back to the med clone so JCs are not an option and yes, you are likely intended to loose the +5imps if you try. CCP doesn't want to make it cosy for Omegas to hop back and skill for free on alpha. And IMHO anything limited to the alpha skills should not be running around with +5imps. IMHO working as intended.
The only use for alphas for someone with a Omega clone would be free skilling for another account that will be later plexed cause even a max skilled Alpha is more or less useless for things you need a second account for. They will most likely limit the amount of alphas logged in simultaneously to stop scouting with alpha fleets.
Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#1254 - 2016-09-08 10:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Starblaze
Good thing we have http://www.eve-search.com/thread/491738-1/page/42

If you compare the thread before and after the "cleanup" you can not tell me that the posts have not been removed selectively.

Let´s compare and take a closer look at the timestamps here.

EF = Eve forums ; ES = eve Search



2016-09-06 09:04:16 - EF #1223 = ES post #1231 (Rogasus Hakuli)

2016.09.06 09:51:09 - removed post = Eve-search post #1232 ( Carniflex)

2016-09-06 10:56:19 - EF post #1224 = ES post #1233 (Rogasus Hakuli)

2016.09.06 11:36:49 - EF post #1225 = ES post #1234 (Naomi Felclaw)

2016-09-06 11:44:37 - EF post #1226 = ES post #1235 (March rabbit)

2016.09.06 12:55:26 - removed post = ES post #1236 (Carniflex)

2016.09.06 13:15:45 - removed post = ES post #1237 (posted by Daylan Vokan - quoting post #1236)

2016.09.06 13:25:15 - removed post = ES post #1238 (posted by Carniflex - quoting #1236 & # 1237)

2016.09.06 13:43:04 - removed post = ES post #1239 (by Daylan Vokan)

2016-09-06 14:12:33 - EF post #1227 = ES post #1240 (by Daylan Vokan)

2016.09.06 14:23:22 - removed post = ES post #1241 (by Carniflex)

2016-09-06 14:26:27 - EF post #1228 = ES post #1242 (Carniflex)

2016.09.06 14:33:35 - EF post #1229 = ES post #1243 (Daylan Vokan)

2016.09.06 15:04:57 - removed post = ES post #1244 2016.09.06 15:04:57 (Jessica Starblaze)

2016.09.06 15:37:39 - removed post = ES post #1245 2016.09.06 15:37:39 (Daylan Vokan)

2016-09-06 16:01:37 - EF post #1230 = ES post #1246 (March rabbit)

.....

And it keeps going like that. Now tell me that does not look like posts being removed selectively.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1255 - 2016-09-08 10:54:08 UTC
Well - seems like the 2 pages of discussion has been truly lost from this thread without a trace (other than eve search). Lets see if it vanishes again if I repost the summary of it. I will not speculate in these posts if the previous ones going missing were deliberate act or not.

These posts are, in essence a follow up for posts #1063, #1064 and #1065 in the present thread where in a nutshell I was arguing in favor of giving Alphas only access to T1 frigates but without skill caps as opposed to the current plan in the devblog where the access is up to cruiser size T1 hulls with racial lock and significant level caps on accessible skills.

The numbers: - the "75 mil SP ballpark" is a theoretical unrestricted Alpha with every single skill at level 5 that is even remotely relevant to flying a frigate sized hull with T2 fit except cyno, cloak and e-war skills except point. Without racial restriction so all 4 races trained to the max.

In that scenario the SP distribution would be roughly following:
Armor - 4,86 mil SP
Drones - 12,54 mil SP
Electronic Systems - 0,8 mil SP
Engineering - 6,54 mil SP
Gunnery - 9,86 mil SP
Missiles - 7,65 mil SP
Navigation - 4,1 mil SP
Rigging - 7,42 mil SP
Scanning - 7,2 mil SP
Shields - 5,55 mil SP
Spaceship command - 2,8 mil SP
Targeting - 3,8 mil SP

Total - 73,14 mil SP.

Rounded up to 75 mil SP to account some prerequisites and skills not relevant to flying a frigate sized hull, like Science 4, etc. Adding larger hulls, if deemed necessary somewhere down the road would not change the total SP significantly as it is basically the full list that is relevant for flying a subcapital ship. Just throw in medium guns and drones if adding cruisers and thats it.

I'll leave this time aside the arguments about "fairness" (as the philosophical deliberations on the pay-to-win vs free-to-play are already well discussed in the remaining thread) and focus on technical details and problems pointed in the lost two pages of discussion.

(1) Why would anyone subscribe at all if he could use a 75 mil SP Alpha clone? Having max relevant skills for a T1 frigate hull would still leave in place quite significant restrictions on the pilot capabilities and roles he/she can fulfill. There would be basically no access to industry other than very basic capabilities, no access to large number of market orders or contracts and above all even in the "frigate" niche there would be still quite a number of things worthy of subscription - most prominent among these ofc the T2 hulls and cloaks. For mining - barges are still a LOT better than even a max skilled venture could be (approx 500 m3/min vs 1000+ m3/minute for barge). For exploration - T2 hulls are still significantly enough better at probing. That said the Alphas would be still within spitting distance of Omegas by having a possibility of paying the premium for pirate/faction hulls to compete with T2 ships in the frigate specific content.

(2) SP "farming" and extractors. In thew original discussion which was lost there was no solution offered for that point before these two last pages vanished. My solution - if technically feasible - would be to keep track of what amount of SP has been trained in Alpha state for a specific skill and not allow extraction of SP that has been accumulated during free-to-play periods. For example, Alpha clone has trained "Advanced Weapon Upgrades" up to 200 000 SP. Sometime later when in Omega state he has trained the skill up to level 5 but has decided that he does not need that skill after all and wants to cash out the SP invested in that skill. However, when using the extractor on that skill he can drop it as low as 200 000 SP and not an SP more, because that is the amount that has been trained in "free to play" regime. If keeping track of "free" SP on a individual skill basis is technically not feasible a bit simpler solution would be just to keep track of character total SP which has been added wile the clone is in Alpha state and not allow skill extraction to drop the character under that SP level. Another possibility to make it more inconvenient to "farm" SP on alpha accounts would be adding a requirement that any skill in the skill que must start during the next 24h, meaning that one can not just throw in 5 year training plan but has to remember to log in every once in a while to start another skill.

(3) Injectors and Alphas. Current Alphas as proposed can use them and I honestly do not see a problem if the "unrestricted" Alphas could as well. Every time a injector is extracted CCP gets its cut as somewhere, someone, has spent the real money to make that possible. Yes, that would mean that a fresh dude could push his character up to approx 75 mil and play free forever if he is happy with T1 frigate specific content and the restrictions do not bother him. I am not particularly worried about the servers capability to take the load, to be honest. EVE is huge and we are quite far from the record numbers we have seen in the past simultaneously logged in. That kind of pilots would be minority - probably most of them would be anyway high SP Omegas that have dropped into Alpha state for time being. I.e, they would have already spent about 600 $/EUR on the game to be sitting on that amount of SP assuming quite focused build specific for flying sub-capitals at max level.

to be continued ...

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1256 - 2016-09-08 10:55:15 UTC
... continiued

(4) Training speed. Alphas have reduced base training rate even in the current proposal and I honestly do not have issue with that. thanx to the EVE market a fresh Alpha can, in theory, catch up with older pilots SP wise without spending real money by grinding up and buying injectors. Similar point could be made about the fact that most of the ship hulls in EVE would be locked for the Alphas - in theory they could grind out enough for a PLEX and unlock all the possible hulls in the game for themselves without spending the real life money in person. In my opinion the most optimal training speed model would be linear training speed pentaly as a function of SP starting at 100% speed at 400 000 SP and reaching 25% training speed at 30 mil SP. The exact numbers and turning points are not as important but that would make it possible to train the basic skills at relatively good speeds while significantly delaying the capability of Alpha to reach the max theoretical SP cap without doing something that gives CCP some income. By the 30 mil SP when the training speed would be about quarter of an Omega account the injectors should be looking quite lucrative for the free-to-play Alpha account for taking the standard free-to-play style shortcut by changing their grind for the money someone else has spent to create that injector.

(5) Why only frigates? Would it not be worse than having access to the heavily restricted cruisers as it is in the current plan by CCP? My argument is that over the recent years CCP has fleshed out the frigate specific content quite well - there are frigate specifc PvP options (FW, frig wormholes, etc) and well as PvE (smaller anoms, L4 burners, frig wormholes, etc). Many of these have specific restrictions that prevent larger hulls come and ruin the party giving the free players a specific niche where they can feel they can be the best (potentially) even as a free to play account. Yes - no T2 hulls and excluding of some modules gives a certain disadvantages but by spending more resources the can attain the similar power levels by using pirate hulls and shinier fits. The key reason for such a heavy restrictions - as far as I understand CCP argument - is to avoid potential shocks in EVE economy. In my opinion starting with with only frigates (but without fitting handicaps present in the original devblog) would be as safe, in essence, as with handicapped cruisers if not even a bit safer. Only existing Omegas would have, in essence, the "full" SP Alphas at the start while the rest of new Alphas would start at rather modest power levels - at the higher end an unrestricted pirate frigate with pimp fit has comparable dps to the restricted cruiser hulls. That would give CCP more time to monitor the change and unlock the larger hulls when deemed that the situation is safe enough for that. In addition what it would allow them to do, in essence, would be sending all the Alphas that did try it but went away for whatever reason an e-mail telling them that oh look wow, we added larger hull to the Alpha access roster! Possibly motivating them to log in again and try EVE again.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1257 - 2016-09-08 13:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: MrQuisno
To not have the system get abused from lots of alts being made up. Their should be a one time charge for all new accounts made. Also the alpha state clones should not be allowed on the test server. Limit the log on mount to 2 accounts only. :)
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1258 - 2016-09-08 13:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
Carniflex wrote:
... continiued

(4) Training speed. Alphas have reduced base training rate even in the current proposal and I honestly do not have issue with that. thanx to the EVE market a fresh Alpha can, in theory, catch up with older pilots SP wise without spending real money by grinding up and buying injectors. Similar point could be made about the fact that most of the ship hulls in EVE would be locked for the Alphas - in theory they could grind out enough for a PLEX and unlock all the possible hulls in the game for themselves without spending the real life money in person. In my opinion the most optimal training speed model would be linear training speed pentaly as a function of SP starting at 100% speed at 400 000 SP and reaching 25% training speed at 30 mil SP. The exact numbers and turning points are not as important but that would make it possible to train the basic skills at relatively good speeds while significantly delaying the capability of Alpha to reach the max theoretical SP cap without doing something that gives CCP some income. By the 30 mil SP when the training speed would be about quarter of an Omega account the injectors should be looking quite lucrative for the free-to-play Alpha account for taking the standard free-to-play style shortcut by changing their grind for the money someone else has spent to create that injector.

(5) Why only frigates? Would it not be worse than having access to the heavily restricted cruisers as it is in the current plan by CCP? My argument is that over the recent years CCP has fleshed out the frigate specific content quite well - there are frigate specifc PvP options (FW, frig wormholes, etc) and well as PvE (smaller anoms, L4 burners, frig wormholes, etc). Many of these have specific restrictions that prevent larger hulls come and ruin the party giving the free players a specific niche where they can feel they can be the best (potentially) even as a free to play account. Yes - no T2 hulls and excluding of some modules gives a certain disadvantages but by spending more resources the can attain the similar power levels by using pirate hulls and shinier fits. The key reason for such a heavy restrictions - as far as I understand CCP argument - is to avoid potential shocks in EVE economy. In my opinion starting with with only frigates (but without fitting handicaps present in the original devblog) would be as safe, in essence, as with handicapped cruisers if not even a bit safer. Only existing Omegas would have, in essence, the "full" SP Alphas at the start while the rest of new Alphas would start at rather modest power levels - at the higher end an unrestricted pirate frigate with pimp fit has comparable dps to the restricted cruiser hulls. That would give CCP more time to monitor the change and unlock the larger hulls when deemed that the situation is safe enough for that. In addition what it would allow them to do, in essence, would be sending all the Alphas that did try it but went away for whatever reason an e-mail telling them that oh look wow, we added larger hull to the Alpha access roster! Possibly motivating them to log in again and try EVE again.

I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.

This is done very quickly:
3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage
Fed navy AB
CN Med shield ext
Stasis and scram II
DCU II
FN DDA

CDFE II
Anti EM II
Anti Therm II

Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS
Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.

Speed 1100ms
9-11k ehp
Easy to switch damaged types.

You think this wont be a problem.
Anthar Thebess
#1259 - 2016-09-08 13:41:26 UTC
How people can abuse alfa clones in WH :
Plan is simple, put alfa clone in every WH and be able to monitor activity in this WH.
Now it is not about putting every WH we got, but people want to do it for all profitable.
C5-C6
Mikka johna Caboose
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1260 - 2016-09-08 14:35:23 UTC
Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status
I've a friend that is potentially in that situation