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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Author
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
#101 - 2016-09-03 12:56:44 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.

To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.


It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time Lol


Yep the system is fair and clear. Big smile
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
#102 - 2016-09-03 13:05:54 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Elayae wrote:

It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception.

Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W.

Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.


Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2016-09-03 13:06:42 UTC
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.

To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.


It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time Lol


Yep the system is fair and clear. Big smile
I take it your referring to Alpha's now not your convoluted structured pay to win system of tiered ship classes and passive income magnates for 3 dollars a month.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#104 - 2016-09-03 13:13:24 UTC
Elayae wrote:

Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.

The problem with that is the verbiage, not with the execution. EVE is only going to be P2W with this change if it has always been P2W. If you want to argue that, then you're on your own, because I don't feel like killing that many brain cells just to understand it enough to argue with you.
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
#105 - 2016-09-03 13:14:38 UTC
Sylvia Kildare wrote:
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?


If you make the game that alpha clones can experience a lot more "real" and "full" that what they're talking about now, then you run the risk of reducing the number of alpha clones who will ever upgrade to omega.

It will also mean more and more veterans can reduce the number of omega accts they have by replacing them more and more with alphas. IOW, from both old AND new players, CCP will be making less cash.

That doesn't seem like the right way to go to keep the game healthy. The alpha experience MUST be lackluster compared to the omega or else there is no incentive to pay for the omega.


The risk is not greater then introducing the alpha clone and upsetting the omega ones to leave. A fairer system leads to more understanding then try to mix 2 systems which are further apart. The idea is to create a win win situation for both alpha and omega.

Healthy or not, this is already a bold move. Many are in doubt or have reached the tipping point to say goodbye.
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
#106 - 2016-09-03 13:19:27 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Elayae wrote:

Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.

The problem with that is the verbiage, not with the execution. EVE is only going to be P2W with this change if it has always been P2W. If you want to argue that, then you're on your own, because I don't feel like killing that many brain cells just to understand it enough to argue with you.


I understand, to explain the P2W in the old system does not matter now.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2016-09-03 13:42:16 UTC
Elayae wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Elayae wrote:

It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception.

Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W.

Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.


Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.

In its current incarnation, there are people in rookie who are actually earning enough for a plex whilst they are in there trial time. So if its possible to do that when time restricted then in an endless time cycle freeplay mode you will have equal if not more of a chance to attain this level of earning ergo making your pay 2 win scenario a mute point.

That is also with t1 kit and racial ships nothing fancy.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#108 - 2016-09-03 14:05:17 UTC
I might be a little slow - but alphas cannot do PI. This leaves this game feature to paying customers. woot woot.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#109 - 2016-09-03 14:43:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?

-Liang

I like this point. Obviously all of us understand how this new system works, but external marketing is going to paint it in ways that don't reflect the reality and that's going to lead to confused and angry players who weren't initially familiar with EVE Online.

Sadly enough, even if CCP is very upfront about how the system will work on their own websites and on the game client, that will still lead to people trying to accuse them of misleading customers because their favorite gaming news website said "Free-to-Play!" without adequately explaining the reality.

It's looking like CCP might have to invest some time in talking to many of those websites in order to ensure that misconception is straightened out. We don't want people crying foul for no reason just when we're starting to get them interested.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#110 - 2016-09-03 17:22:04 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

You're reacting as if the game is going P2W just because the trial accounts are becoming time-unrestricted. That isn't the case. EVE is, has always been, and will still be, Pay-to-play. Having time-unrestricted trial accounts doesn't magically make the game suddenly become P2W.
...
Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.


I want to address this on two fronts: the factual nature of your claim that Eve Online will be pay to play after the change, and then move back to the obvious goals of this move.

Obviously, removing the time limit on the trial means - definitionally - that the game is no longer pay to play. People can log in, run missions, shoot people, bullshit in local, build things, mine, and more all without paying a subscription. And they can do that forever. Additionally, CCP Seagull herself talkd up how people can "play the game for free" (I believe that's actually a direct quote). There is no possible way to justify a claim that the game is pay to play once this rolls out.

Furthermore, this move has obvious goals: to increase new player adoption and to bring old players back to the game. New player adoption is fairly straight forward: we want more warm bodies in game. The single server sandbox nature of Eve Online makes it such that every person who logs in and does something in the game makes the game better for every other person. It doesn't even really matter whether they're missioning, mining, plexing, hauling, or PVPing - they are interacting with other players. In a very real sense, if this move is successful there will be a lot of these new players floating around.

Returning players is also relatively straight forward - but very different. These players return to the game and provide social interactions with established players. This increases retention for established paying players, but also increases the probability that the returning player will convert to a paying account again. As a nice side effect to this, Hours for Plex will be disappearing, which should help the petition queue times. ;-)

All things considered, I'm relatively less concerned about returning players worrying about pay to win. With them I'm concerned that they won't be able to evac null sec where they live or undock their mission BS to make more money, and the conversion bid will be unsuccessful. It's the new players that really concern me - people who have an established understanding of the term free to play. People who are going to realize that it doesn't matter how well they train or how well the fly or how many years they've played when their clone is so limited that they fundamentally cannot ever be competitive. The game won't be pay to play from that perspective. It's pay to win.


-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Lee Mealone
Radzone
#111 - 2016-09-03 17:32:35 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.

Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.


Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)

If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.

I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do.


+1

For me, this is my main concern also.

I agree to the suggestion that Alpha and Omega should not be able to log-in from the same computer at the same time.
Velores Prokhozai
Sad Frog Space Fighters
#112 - 2016-09-03 17:48:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

People who are going to realize that it doesn't matter how well they train or how well the fly or how many years they've played when their clone is so limited that they fundamentally cannot ever be competitive.

Yes, and that is right.

Liang Nuren wrote:

It's pay to win.

No, it isn't.
Delekon
Art Of Explosions
#113 - 2016-09-03 18:01:06 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Delekon wrote:
I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.

The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data.

If a group were to coordinate 30 scouts like that, then they deserve to be able to do so. With that said, however, as both a former regular scout myself and as someone who has seen the Hellscape that is managing active PvP fleets, the chances of 30 scouts ever happening is slim to none, and even if it did, it would cause significantly more chaos. It would make it nearly impossible to hear the signal through the noise.


"It ai't gonna happen" is a always a bad argument in eve.
Titus Cole Dooley
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#114 - 2016-09-03 18:26:48 UTC
I love how every Youtube vid about this is just "ITS GOING TO BE GREAT FOR THE GAME!!!". I have a feeling its not, and this is why. I have been playing for over 3 years and I still don't know all there is about this game. The reason i stay with this game is 1 because its awesome 2 there is always more to learn and 3 I am invested in this game. Both with TIME spent (over 4300 hours) and CASH spent (5 paid accounts). I feel if you make it Free than people will not be as invested in the game. They will not have the access to all the stuff that really gets you into the game. Then when it gets a little rough for them or they get overwhelmed by the learning curve they will quit. Also this will not be good for eve in that the new fan they get out of this will not be really be into the game. Most of the people that play eve now are REALLY into the game. I just don't see Alpha clones going to fan fest.

Kharamete
Royal Assent
#115 - 2016-09-03 18:29:56 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:

I like this point. Obviously all of us understand how this new system works, but external marketing is going to paint it in ways that don't reflect the reality and that's going to lead to confused and angry players who weren't initially familiar with EVE Online.

Sadly enough, even if CCP is very upfront about how the system will work on their own websites and on the game client, that will still lead to people trying to accuse them of misleading customers because their favorite gaming news website said "Free-to-Play!" without adequately explaining the reality.

It's looking like CCP might have to invest some time in talking to many of those websites in order to ensure that misconception is straightened out. We don't want people crying foul for no reason just when we're starting to get them interested.


Eve is Pay-to-Win today. You have to pay for a subscription to even play the game. Either indirectly with PLEX or directly with your credit card. If you don’t pay, you can’t win.

That said, I’m still undecided about the system.

It’s not opening up Eve, or the dubious tricks and exploits that the players will ferret out that alarm me. Eve players have always done this. It’s par for the course in these things. It’s certainly not a fear of one bloke blotting out the sun in Uedama with his gank catalysts. It’s more... the people who are attracted to free to play game, and the methods used by the devs in those free to play games.

Perhaps I’ve been unlucky, but the ones I’ve tried before, it seemed that the devs spent half their time thinking up gimmicks to get the 12 year old player-base to spend their weekly allowance in the game store.

A subscription was always a gate. A divider. A hurdle. That hurdle will go away now. Twelve year old Johnny won’t have to ask his parents to enter their credit card number to play this cool game.

Naked gnome dancing in Stormwind. Or Jita. It could be our future.

CCP FoxFour: "... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."

My little youtube videos can be found here

Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#116 - 2016-09-03 20:45:20 UTC
Lee Mealone wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
You need to prevent a person with a omega toon from logging on any alpha toons at the same time.

Otherwise EVE pvp will become everyone's omega toons plus their griffin alpha alts. and it will be JAM online and it will suck.


Plus many of us dont enjoy the low graphics, sub 5 fps, tidi, no sound battles that huge null sec engagements become. I was their during the first keepstar kill and it was the most boring, horrible looking (due to low graphics and sub 5 fps) gameplay I have ever experienced in eve. ( I am above the recommended spec and I was not multi boxing)

If you allow simultaneous log in of alpha alts with omega toons these huge tidi, horrible graphics sub 5 ps battles will be extremely frequent.

I want more people (real people not alts) playing eve and I think clone states concept is excellent but ccp you need put in place strong measures to stop alts online. Because right now people will be forced to do it. If my opponent is bring their omegas plus 1 griffin alpha alt (or 5) then I will be forced to do it do.


+1

For me, this is my main concern also.

I agree to the suggestion that Alpha and Omega should not be able to log-in from the same computer at the same time.



Please explain something..

I have 4 accounts, if I decide to let a couple lapse why can't I log them on?

Just because you have both Alpha and Omega accounts should not preclude you from playing with the accounts you own. It's a silly idea.

What about the player who couldn't pay for 2 or 3 accounts, he's not allowed to now make a couple to help him? Simply because of others paranoia?
Ray Mitar
Ganksters Inc
#117 - 2016-09-03 22:25:39 UTC
Excessive limitations on Alpha accounts that stop them from activity/ game play style others use is total horse pucky.

CCP either ban high sec ganking or stop trying to coddle those who live in fear of it. Maybe I do want to log in on an Alpha and do some ganks, this is EVE right? Don't undock, become a station trader at an NPC trading hub, be safe and enjoy yourself. However if you undock into the void beware, and be ready, there be dragons here!

It might be interesting to see how the big alliances fare against swarms of Alphas taking them on in null sec, their old school origins of massive numbers to overwhelm superior firepower may return to haunt them. Now who would cry about that? Instead of being afraid of Alpha accounts Omega players should be planning plotting how to best make use of them and limiting their abilities limits all options. Be courageous or stay docked up.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#118 - 2016-09-03 22:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Yes, give everyone an unlimited amount of free alts. Griefers, hackers, botters, terrible persons, I dont care. But there will be no one paying after few months beside them.
Or maybe I should say playing. Not every underaged "gangsta" have enough money in piggybank to pay subscription.
Absolute Intoleranto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#119 - 2016-09-03 22:55:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Absolute Intoleranto
Any information about skill extractors/injectors?

- Question about extractors answered -


Please dont let them use the extractors/injectors!
This is something that should be a Omega privilege only.

Absolute
Absolute Intoleranto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-09-03 22:58:25 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Please explain something..

I have 4 accounts, if I decide to let a couple lapse why can't I log them on?

Just because you have both Alpha and Omega accounts should not preclude you from playing with the accounts you own. It's a silly idea.

What about the player who couldn't pay for 2 or 3 accounts, he's not allowed to now make a couple to help him? Simply because of others paranoia?


Thats not a paranoia. It will happen for sure.

I am also against the use of both states at the same time.