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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Author
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#81 - 2016-09-03 05:26:59 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough Question


And dont allow accountant roles and such to Alpha clones, dont let them hide their isk on Corp wallets set up by an Omega clone.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Delekon
Art Of Explosions
#82 - 2016-09-03 05:50:04 UTC
I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.

The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data.
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#83 - 2016-09-03 07:05:32 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Hello piloteers,

Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.

However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.

My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:

B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month.
These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.

G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month.
These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.

O -> Omega clone for $15 a month.
These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.


*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.

**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited.

Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win.

So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really


The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid.

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#84 - 2016-09-03 08:56:44 UTC
Regarding simultaneous Alpha Logins...

I know it is highly unlikely, but nowadays you never know where internetmobs turn up unexpected.
So in theory, what would happen if all of a sudden enough Alphas login to cause a global server load problem. Will there be measures taken to protect the servers and the Omega users? Maybe like waiting queues with priority for Omega users?
(would be happy to see that, but as I said - very unlikely)
Amarak Valerii
#85 - 2016-09-03 08:58:56 UTC
The concept of PAY TO WIN in eve is unlike other MMOs due to the existence of PLEX! As long as PLEX is around, this entire pay-to-win discussion is irrelevant.

When people hear "pay-to-win" they immediately think they have to take out their credit cards and give out their hard earned money, witch is not entirely true in EVE. You can also pay with your soul, ahm, i mean with in game money which newcomers have all the time in the world to accumulate at their own pace. In a sense, eve has never and always been "PAY" to "WIN" because you could "win" by paying with ingame isk OR real life isk.

"Content Creators" please at least explain the term "plexing" when you use it.

tl;dr Advertise the concept of PLEX and what it means

Think for yourself. Don't be sheep!

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#86 - 2016-09-03 09:03:04 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
Will there be a max wallet cap (in isk) on alpha clones, dealing with market bots is rough Question


And dont allow accountant roles and such to Alpha clones, dont let them hide their isk on Corp wallets set up by an Omega clone.


Forget it. Players will easily circumvent such artificial restrictions (transfer to Omega banker, jettison in space and so on ) and it will only complicate things.

Always KISS when possible. (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2016-09-03 09:11:42 UTC
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Hello piloteers,

Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.

However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.

My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:

B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month.
These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.

G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month.
These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.

O -> Omega clone for $15 a month.
These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.


*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.

**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited.

Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win.

So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really


The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid.

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay


That is rather the purpose of a trial account, yes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#88 - 2016-09-03 09:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
I still dont see how something good can come out of it. Question to everyone saying the people will come with more money for CCP: why did they leave in the first place, or why did they not stay past the trial?

PCU counts is not everything, money will not follow it. CCP is putting the heads in the grinder for nothing.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2016-09-03 09:21:34 UTC
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay

So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time.

Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough.

So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing.

I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#90 - 2016-09-03 09:30:48 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay

So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time.

Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough.

So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing.

I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??


That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2016-09-03 09:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay

So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time.

Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough.

So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing.

I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??


That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones.

You are trying to turn it into a pay to win system, the more you pay the higher the ship class you pilot and how are even smaller ships for alpha's ( free play mode ) going to make them feel like they are able to accomplish anything like what they had even in the old trial system.
Edit: Actually we have them already - Ibis, Velator, impairor and whatever the skip rats fly you want them to be in rookie ships for the duration Shocked
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#92 - 2016-09-03 10:26:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Headline: Eve is Free to Play. People telling their friends about it: free to play. Pricetag on Steam: free to play. I'm pointing out that words have meanings, and right now those words are free to play.

Look, I get that there are justifications and clarifications and such to be made - but right now those are taking a strong back seat to the words free to play. …

I'm totally down with a free to play Eve Online, but this move is branded poorly (unlimited trial) and doesn't go far enough to be actually effective (the alpha clones are way too limited).

-Liang


If you're going to argue that CCP exercise better control over how Clone States are marketed, you need to stop using the contentious phrase yourself :D

Free To Play has a distinct meaning in the gaming world, which is that most of the game is accessible to you from the start, but you'll be expending a lot of effort to gain items that pay-to-play players have easy access to. F2P also has the connotation of "Pay To Win" where people with money can basically buy victory.

Does an Alpha State account consist of an "extended trial"? What about a "sampler account"? What phrasing can we use to clearly convey that EVE Online now offers a subscription-free experience that is a limited form of the full game but still has you participating in the one universe with other players?
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#93 - 2016-09-03 10:32:57 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win


Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay

So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time.

Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough.

So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing.

I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??


That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones.

You are trying to turn it into a pay to win system, the more you pay the higher the ship class you pilot and how are even smaller ships for alpha's ( free play mode ) going to make them feel like they are able to accomplish anything like what they had even in the old trial system.
Edit: Actually we have them already - Ibis, Velator, impairor and whatever the skip rats fly you want them to be in rookie ships for the duration Shocked


It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2016-09-03 10:54:33 UTC
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.

To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#95 - 2016-09-03 11:07:08 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.

To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.


It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2016-09-03 11:30:44 UTC
Elayae wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?
Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.

**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.

To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.


It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time Lol
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#97 - 2016-09-03 11:41:20 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.


Not feeling like it?

I certainly won't be bothering with that, better things to do with my EVE playtime.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#98 - 2016-09-03 12:35:48 UTC
Delekon wrote:
I think this will be a boon to old active players as because it will bring a free alt for small stuff like hauling.

The problem i see is with scouting as a 30 man fleet can have 30 eyes out there. The easy solution would be remove or limit Dscan from Alphas. They can still scout with combats but it takes more effort and time to gather data.

If a group were to coordinate 30 scouts like that, then they deserve to be able to do so. With that said, however, as both a former regular scout myself and as someone who has seen the Hellscape that is managing active PvP fleets, the chances of 30 scouts ever happening is slim to none, and even if it did, it would cause significantly more chaos. It would make it nearly impossible to hear the signal through the noise.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#99 - 2016-09-03 12:42:56 UTC
Elayae wrote:
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones?


If you make the game that alpha clones can experience a lot more "real" and "full" that what they're talking about now, then you run the risk of reducing the number of alpha clones who will ever upgrade to omega.

It will also mean more and more veterans can reduce the number of omega accts they have by replacing them more and more with alphas. IOW, from both old AND new players, CCP will be making less cash.

That doesn't seem like the right way to go to keep the game healthy. The alpha experience MUST be lackluster compared to the omega or else there is no incentive to pay for the omega.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#100 - 2016-09-03 12:47:17 UTC
Elayae wrote:

It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.

No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception.

You're reacting as if the game is going P2W just because the trial accounts are becoming time-unrestricted. That isn't the case. EVE is, has always been, and will still be, Pay-to-play. Having time-unrestricted trial accounts doesn't magically make the game suddenly become P2W.

EVE has always had a system like it's getting: trial accounts are free and restricted in what they can train while paid accounts are paid and unrestricted. All this is doing is loosening the restrictions on what a trial account could do while making it so people can continue playing instead of having to recycle their trial accounts if they're interested in EVE but aren't sure they want to pay yet (note that, for luxury items, which a game is, if a person is on the fence about purchasing it and are put into a position of having to purchase it or walk away, the overwhelming majority will choose to walk away).

Yes, the Alpha accounts are restricted. So are trial accounts. It's impossible to train enough skills quickly enough for a trial account to achieve what an Alpha account's max skills are. A person would need to train at more than double the current max rate (barring Cerebral Boosters and +7's) to reach the SP of an Alpha char in 30 days.

Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W.

Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.