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Crime & Punishment

 
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So long, and thanks for all the isk

First post
Author
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#141 - 2016-05-26 13:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Razpataz
March rabbit wrote:
I'm just curious: how does it happen that mercs have contract and have no ideas where their targets are? Isn't it part of contract to give you some information about targets?

The way i see it:
- i want someone to be hurt by mercs. Why i care? Maybe they run missions here? Maybe they mined out all the ice? In any case they ARE HERE and i want them to not BE HERE.
- i contract mercs and pay them for getting this someone out of HERE
- mercs instantly know: their target is HERE. They sent scouts and from now it's their job to track their targets

What do i miss? People paying for killing random corp they found in corp finder so they actually have no ideas who and where are these people? I believe in any case if you pay your money for someone's head this someone should be somehow present in vicinity.

Thanks


In highsec most corporations and alliances are not based out of one specific area.
They are all over the place. Hiding in every corner of space.

I've had employers coming to me because they need their targets to hurt, not moved out of an area.. or denied a hub.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#142 - 2016-05-26 13:39:55 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
I'm just curious: how does it happen that mercs have contract and have no ideas where their targets are? Isn't it part of contract to give you some information about targets?

The way i see it:
- i want someone to be hurt by mercs. Why i care? Maybe they run missions here? Maybe they mined out all the ice? In any case they ARE HERE and i want them to not BE HERE.
- i contract mercs and pay them for getting this someone out of HERE
- mercs instantly know: their target is HERE. They sent scouts and from now it's their job to track their targets

What do i miss? People paying for killing random corp they found in corp finder so they actually have no ideas who and where are these people? I believe in any case if you pay your money for someone's head this someone should be somehow present in vicinity.

Thanks

yeah you are sortof right,
we usually have a broad idea where to look to begin with
this is all well and good for the first maybe day or so,
basically up untill they twig we arent the typical hubhumping degenerates ,
sometimes they do their research but not often.
anyway after we abruptly take advantage of the initial complacency they usually

a) move
b) drop corp
or
c) go inactive

mostly we see a corp do all three so
we have a mix of inactives, nomads and dec dogers
and because there is no particular reason for anyone to stay in one particular place in empire
we quickly and invariably are left with anything from entire regions to literally the whole of empire look through,
for a handful of lads that -might- be playing the game.
March rabbit
Foxholers
#143 - 2016-05-26 13:55:21 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
I'm just curious: how does it happen that mercs have contract and have no ideas where their targets are? Isn't it part of contract to give you some information about targets?

The way i see it:
- i want someone to be hurt by mercs. Why i care? Maybe they run missions here? Maybe they mined out all the ice? In any case they ARE HERE and i want them to not BE HERE.
- i contract mercs and pay them for getting this someone out of HERE
- mercs instantly know: their target is HERE. They sent scouts and from now it's their job to track their targets

What do i miss? People paying for killing random corp they found in corp finder so they actually have no ideas who and where are these people? I believe in any case if you pay your money for someone's head this someone should be somehow present in vicinity.

Thanks

yeah you are sortof right,
we usually have a broad idea where to look to begin with
this is all well and good for the first maybe day or so,
basically up untill they twig we arent the typical hubhumping degenerates ,
sometimes they do their research but not often.
anyway after we abruptly take advantage of the initial complacency they usually

a) move
b) drop corp
or
c) go inactive

mostly we see a corp do all three so
we have a mix of inactives, nomads and dec dogers
and because there is no particular reason for anyone to stay in one particular place in empire
we quickly and invariably are left with anything from entire regions to literally the whole of empire look through,
for a handful of lads that -might- be playing the game.

Ok. Thanks.

But what you describe shows that you already disrupted their activities in particular area. Isn't it enough for contract? Do you really HAVE TO follow your targets after that?

Or in general terms: what people usually pay for?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy
Geriatrics Fight Club
#144 - 2016-05-26 14:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawmeat Mary
March rabbit wrote:
Ok. Thanks.

But what you describe shows that you already disrupted their activities in particular area. Isn't it enough for contract? Do you really HAVE TO follow your targets after that?

Or in general terms: what people usually pay for?

They usually pay to rake kills and harass their targets unto submission. If the mercs don't get kills because the targets stopped loggin in, then clients are usually fine with it. It IS a ISK loss that the mercs inflict, though indirectly.

Having the wardecced corp/alliance continuing their activities undisturbed by getting nomadic in out of the way corners of space is what pisses the client off.

Except that we now don't know if they are being nomadic or just offline. You could hunt them when you knew they were at least online. Nobody got the ressources or time or inclination to log in dozens of alts and camp logged off targets 24/7 in hope they gonna log in.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.

Exaido
Fire Over Light
Those Infernal Machines
#145 - 2016-05-27 12:12:13 UTC
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.

Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#146 - 2016-05-27 13:47:19 UTC
Exaido wrote:
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.


Its after the war has started the issue begins, they all scatter and not follow usual habits.
Sending them a convo before your start hunt them is like.. "hey, I'm gonna come for you now" and the target docks or log.
And yeah.. I would love to sit and constantly convo 100+ people over and over, in case someone logs on. *sarcasm*

Yes there are ways to check if online or not.
The thing is that even with the watchlist the work involved with hunting burned out players.
Now we are left with a huge amount of extra work, mindnumbing one at that.
Negasonic Teenage Warhead
Doomheim
#147 - 2016-05-27 13:57:21 UTC
Exaido wrote:
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.



Thanks for your input, Liam. We appreciate your service.
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy
Geriatrics Fight Club
#148 - 2016-05-27 14:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawmeat Mary
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Exaido wrote:
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.


Its after the war has started the issue begins, they all scatter and not follow usual habits.
Sending them a convo before your start hunt them is like.. "hey, I'm gonna come for you now" and the target docks or log.
And yeah.. I would love to sit and constantly convo 100+ people over and over, in case someone logs on. *sarcasm*

Yes there are ways to check if online or not.
The thing is that even with the watchlist the work involved with hunting burned out players.
Now we are left with a huge amount of extra work, mindnumbing one at that.

I've know long time, excellent players become campers over time because it was so much less work and generate more easy kills than actually zipping all over the place to run Locators and actually scout an known online target.

It was already time consuming with the Watchlist. I was looking at my merc comrades raking nice and sometimes juicy kills on Jita gate or trade pipes while I was working my ass off to hunt, and hopefully, get a nice kill or two.

Now it is inordinately more difficult and time consuming. Almost nobody does it anymore.

CCP removed Watchlist to cater to supercap pilots, and shat on everyone else.

Edit: And no, it was not on this character, KB stats won't tell you anything.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.

Exaido
Fire Over Light
Those Infernal Machines
#149 - 2016-05-27 15:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Exaido
There's a number of ways to do this. DracVlad made some good suggestions. If MERC groups are serious about it, I'm interested.

First I'd ask:

1) What is your Merc Group Corporation Name?

2) What areas of Space do you operate in?

3) Can you work with other Corporations?
Exaido
Fire Over Light
Those Infernal Machines
#150 - 2016-05-27 15:54:41 UTC
Negasonic Teenage Warhead wrote:
Exaido wrote:
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.



Thanks for your input, Liam. We appreciate your service.


You're welcome!
Exaido
Fire Over Light
Those Infernal Machines
#151 - 2016-05-27 16:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Exaido
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Exaido wrote:
The 'difficulty' in a surveillance is dramatically effected by the amount of data the client can provide to develop a target-package. Price accordingly, if the client can't give time-zone, region of space, initial incident report or other data to help locate the player, than charge them for that. - building the 'target package'. The client learns, that more data provides a better result and a lower cost.

There is a tonne of data in Eve that you don't get in the real world: from kill-boards, corporation member lists, Dotlan and the like - and the fact that you can 'ping' someone in conversation to determine if they are online or offline. It's a paradigm shift from the 'buddy list' but far from impossible to do.


Its after the war has started the issue begins, they all scatter and not follow usual habits.
Sending them a convo before your start hunt them is like.. "hey, I'm gonna come for you now" and the target docks or log.
And yeah.. I would love to sit and constantly convo 100+ people over and over, in case someone logs on. *sarcasm*

Yes there are ways to check if online or not.
The thing is that even with the watchlist the work involved with hunting burned out players.
Now we are left with a huge amount of extra work, mindnumbing one at that.


I don't disagree that pings to 100 people is inefficient and made more so if you don't know the organization structure; if you know that then you target 10 people in the corporation Fleet Commanders, CEOs, Directors etc. I'm asking questions to try to be helpful.

1) Are you usually working in defense or offense? (Defense being party War'Dec'd and Offense being party Declaring)

2) Are your clients generally repeat clients?

3) How many engagements are planned and how many are reactive; someone got upset in local or ganked on a gate and declared a war in retaliation?

If you don't want to answer here, you can email if you want.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#152 - 2016-05-27 16:20:49 UTC
its more than inefficient, its soul crushingly tedious, awkward in the extreme and utterly and stupidly bad practice for the intended purpose.

not to mention likely to be patched out at a moments notice.
Saeger1737
The Clown Shoe Crew
#153 - 2016-05-27 16:40:36 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
its more than inefficient, its soul crushingly tedious, awkward in the extreme and utterly and stupidly bad practice for the intended purpose.

not to mention likely to be patched out at a moments notice.

Such is life, like joining Devil's Mumble and when you leave you feel like you just got a contact high and your soul now has a debt of some crap.... or I've drank too much beer and this was all a dream.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!

Malakye Appleton
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#154 - 2016-06-02 15:02:30 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:

Any ideas?


Locator agents not running on offline players would do it for me. id be happily back to work just with that


Or better yet, locator agents tell you if they are online or not, and if not, when they were last online.



^^^^^^
This, at the very least.

Living the dream, one tear at a time...

Malakye Appleton
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2016-06-02 15:21:36 UTC
My guess is CCP has their economist looking at the financials and they are trying everything possible to push everyone to low/null sec but all of these efforts are just pushing people out completely, or are they?

I see groups leaving the merc business, but are they leaving the game? CCP knows that EVE is easily addicting and while such a game requires a great deal of time investment most aren't willing to easily walk away from, it becomes a relationship of "thank you sir, may I have another!".

I find it odd though that when looking at the player base numbers over the years on a site (Sorry, I can't remember the name), it does in fact appear that EVE's player base is falling, yes CCP continues thwarting all efforts for High Sec engagement in favor of pushing players where many dont want to be. Forcing players to do anything in a "sandbox" environment isn't quite a theme park, but almost a linear experience in some ways.

"Start here to achieve A"
"Go here to achieve B"
"Finish out your days here"

I would really like to see some fruitful changes to High Sec Merc efforts as in all of the various things I've done, this is the life I most want to excel in as its not easy, hard work but also very exciting. From the looks of things, however, I don't see this getting much better.

Many great and valid points in this thread though.

Living the dream, one tear at a time...

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#156 - 2016-06-02 15:53:23 UTC
The change in question was a rushed one, CCP Foxfour opened up the api to allow third party sites such as "set them red" to add contacts to watchlist directly,for a short time it was all kinds of broken, ctrl-v + enter = comprehensive watchlist.

This was done knowingly to force the previously put-on-the-longfinger issue* with the rest of the devs,
The first we heard about it here was a photo of a powerpoint slide, with no blog, feedback thred or even dev comment we did essentially what we always do as a community when something like this happens .... Put our pants on our heads, set them on fire and ran around screaming because we as mercenaries were going to be left with hub humping in sebod lokis and legions.

This was clearly a forced issue with little to no consideration on the effect it would have on waging war in empire and we have been very vocal on the topic since

*this information comes courtesy of captn morgan CCP Foxfour @ evedublin.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#157 - 2016-06-03 12:46:43 UTC
Exaido wrote:
A bunch of stuff...

If all you want is to make the target inactive in an area for a week, and you don't care about them being killed wherever they run off to, you do not need a merc corp. Just declare war yourself, with whatever pitiful excuse for an industrial corp you happen to have. 99.9% of high sec corps have gotten so paranoid about constant "traps" that they don't even care who or what the war is coming from, they'll still disband/scatter/go inactive to avoid it.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#158 - 2016-06-08 18:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Badman Lasermouse
Hello Nerds and Devils and every other Merc on this thread,


Come to Low Sec, no bullshit.

You are all old and rich and absolutely wasted in high sec. Put those 100+ Million SP toons into ships and come to a place where everyone is a war target. Stop worrying about your killboards. Any group of you could come carve out some space for yourselves in low and keep the content train moving. The mechanics are different and the targets are many but I can assure you the content is there. Live dangerous for a while.


I'll gladly take on any Devil or other merc that wishes to try Low sec and see how it feels. Dust off those capitals and Black Ops you never get to use and come kill internet spaceships.

-Badman

Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#159 - 2016-06-08 19:45:56 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Hello Nerds and Devils and every other Merc on this thread,


Come to Low Sec, no bullshit.

You are all old and rich and absolutely wasted in high sec. Put those 100+ Million SP toons into ships and come to a place where everyone is a war target. Stop worrying about your killboards. Any group of you could come carve out some space for yourselves in low and keep the content train moving. The mechanics are different and the targets are many but I can assure you the content is there. Live dangerous for a while.


I'll gladly take on any Devil or other merc that wishes to try Low sec and see how it feels. Dust off those capitals and Black Ops you never get to use and come kill internet spaceships.


I'm flying with Rabble right now. If I get irritated enough with constant moving and Sov BS I'll probably come to low sec. I don't have the time to get spies into WT corps and figure out if and when they might be online so I can maybe track them down and hope they don't notice I'm coming so I can have a chance and perhaps killing them.

Until the rest of the new structures come out HS is a stagnant waste land for small scale war decs. Hoping that changes.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2016-06-11 10:49:22 UTC
With that said, anybody wanna join me for some 4-4 insta-lock-popping fun?

no more games... it's real this time!!!