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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hulkageddon V: Unholy Union update: TONIGHT AT 0:00
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Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#301 - 2012-01-08 16:22:03 UTC
I was trying to help out the little men by providing some reasonably rewarded and easily hauled jobs but it turned out it was more like handing my stuff to morons for safekeeping.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#302 - 2012-01-08 17:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Ladie Harlot wrote:

Sure they do. When they buy cheap minerals off the market in Jita they don't know or care where they came from.


Now why would miners be buying minerals on the market when it is already in their hangar... silly.

Goon math isnt adding up... typical.

Lyris Nairn wrote:

Pretty much this right here.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#303 - 2012-01-08 17:28:01 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:

Sure they do. When they buy cheap minerals off the market in Jita they don't know or care where they came from.


Now why would miners be buying minerals on the market when it is already in their hangar... silly.

Goon math isnt adding up... typical.

Lyris Nairn wrote:

Pretty much this right here.


Because they don't make enough from mining.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#304 - 2012-01-08 17:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Lady Spank wrote:
Amun Khonsu wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:

Sure they do. When they buy cheap minerals off the market in Jita they don't know or care where they came from.


Now why would miners be buying minerals on the market when it is already in their hangar... silly.

Goon math isnt adding up... typical.

Lyris Nairn wrote:

Pretty much this right here.


Because they don't make enough from mining.


Like I said, miners/manufacturers do not rely on mission loot for their mats. They make the majority of everything they need from mining. They dont go and buy what they can mine (unless in a pinch maybe).

The ony thing high sec miner.manufacturers need to buy is low/null sec ores. You cant get enough zydrine or megacyte from mission loot alone either.

My point stands.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#305 - 2012-01-08 23:18:11 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:

Like I said, miners/manufacturers do not rely on mission loot for their mats. They make the majority of everything they need from mining. They dont go and buy what they can mine (unless in a pinch maybe).

The ony thing high sec miner.manufacturers need to buy is low/null sec ores. You cant get enough zydrine or megacyte from mission loot alone either.

My point stands.


I see your problem....you appear to be laboring under the delusion that most large-scale manufacturers are the same as the large-scale miners.....

In a VERY FEW cases this may be true...but generally the hard-core PvEers focus either on a TON of mining with a little dabbling in manufacturing, or they focus on a TON of manufacturing with a little mining on the side to save costs on the more expensive minerals from time to time...The rest comes from whoever has the lowest prices on the market at the time...and much of that is refined mission loot - because whether its easier to get or not, mission runners most certainly care a lot less about what they get for their mins than people who slave all day mining them P

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?
Trololol Master
M.C.O.S.
#306 - 2012-01-09 00:03:41 UTC
whos talking about what again, and is this post still alive?
Toshiro GreyHawk
#307 - 2012-01-09 11:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:
Amun Khonsu wrote:

Like I said, miners/manufacturers do not rely on mission loot for their mats. They make the majority of everything they need from mining. They dont go and buy what they can mine (unless in a pinch maybe).

The ony thing high sec miner.manufacturers need to buy is low/null sec ores. You cant get enough zydrine or megacyte from mission loot alone either.

My point stands.


I see your problem....you appear to be laboring under the delusion that most large-scale manufacturers are the same as the large-scale miners.....

In a VERY FEW cases this may be true...but generally the hard-core PvEers focus either on a TON of mining with a little dabbling in manufacturing, or they focus on a TON of manufacturing with a little mining on the side to save costs on the more expensive minerals from time to time...The rest comes from whoever has the lowest prices on the market at the time...and much of that is refined mission loot - because whether its easier to get or not, mission runners most certainly care a lot less about what they get for their mins than people who slave all day mining them P



Yeah. That's pretty much the case.

It's the old Opportunity Cost deal.

What have you sacrificed by doing what you did - instead of the things you didn't do?

For someone who is well established and making a lot of money through manufacturing - a key to their making more - is their playing time. For them - to spend their time out mining raw ore instead of managing their businesses - is a misuse of their time. Most of them started off mining - but as their manufacturing and trading interests came to dominate their business - they spent less and less time doing it.

For newer people starting out - they don't really have anything better to do with their time - (assuming they're going to be industrialists) so mining is a good use of their time.


One thing to remember about Industrialists - is that most of the larger ones are Traders too. They care how much they make off their goods. So - they aren't just industrialists - they're running a business and may well have a lot of things on their plate, managing their orders, their Planets, their research agents, etc. They may also be running missions for standings.

Here though - we are often, if not usually, talking about Players rather than Characters. Most of these guys probably have multiple accounts, the better to run more jobs and manage more planets.


Some of them still mine now and again - because they like doing it - but the bulk of their materials often come from the market. Others may have sold off their mining fleets and now rely entirely on the market.


In any case - there isn't any one way to do this and you have people at all different stages of their careers - so what's true for some may not be true for others - and what might well be the smart move for one person - may be a mistake for someone else.



I don't know if anyone has ever done an accurate survey of how much of the mineral market comes from reprocessed loot and how much from mining but it would be interesting to see. I'm not sure where you could get accurate information on that though - unless you were CCP.

*shrug*

.
Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2012-01-09 17:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Billionaire Carebear
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote:


*shrug*

.


Yes, exactly the path I plan to follow. At 7 months into my only character - I am a dedicated mission miner, I no longer mine for myself since it is more profitable to spend loyalty points. I have risen faster and farther running missions than hunting free-range rocks. I see another 5 months at least running mining missions before I have skilled up enough to go into research so that I can eventually produce items not currently available on the market. However I will most likely always do some mining. And honestly, without hulkisissydom to spur me along I might still be stupidly shooting rocks. This whole en devour has actually made me round out my characters skills and made me a better player, as I never would have come up with mining from a battleship on my own.

People spend years building their characters, it would be stupid of them to abandon the game over this event. And this being the fifth year of this event, if it were detrimental to the game then it would have been stopped by now. Anybody able to be scared off by hulkisissydom is already too fragile of a player for EVE and should run screaming before they spend any more time/money on this game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law http://krypto451.deviantart.com/art/Care-Bears-Spanking-168001373 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Uu1yD-v0  George Carlin "They're Just Words."
Bloody Caesar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#309 - 2012-01-11 03:06:57 UTC
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote:
[quote=Ubiquitous Forum Alt][quote=Amun Khonsu]
I don't know if anyone has ever done an accurate survey of how much of the mineral market comes from reprocessed loot and how much from mining but it would be interesting to see. I'm not sure where you could get accurate information on that though - unless you were CCP.

*shrug*

.


Let me help with that. In Eve I am a budding industrialist but in real life (tm) I am a data analyst. For the last couple of months I've been pulling Eve API data and the Market Dumps at Eve Central. I took a two week period in November for which I have accurate data.

The number of faction (NPC) kills for all of Eve during that period is 111,352,322 ships destroyed.

During that same time period the following market sell orders were recorded by Eve Central;

268,094,664,958 Tritanium in 5,998 orders
49,142,233,183 Pyerite in 3,513 orders
12,613,728,296 Mexallon in 3,383 orders
3,389,054,261 Isogen in 1,949 orders
820,400,787 Nocxium in 2,551 orders
337,525,050 Zydrine in 1,521 orders
94,691,946 Megacyte in 1,183 orders
24,304,748 Morphite in 551 orders

As experienced folks know Eve central relies on volunteers for collecting data so it doesn't capture everything. The real amount could be higher. I only looked at the mineral group (groupID=18).

For that amount of minerals to be supplied by the NPC kills it would work out to the following per kill;

Tritanium - 2,408
Pyerite - 441
Mexallon - 113
Isogen - 30
Nocxium - 7
Zydrine - 3
Megacyte - 0.8
Morphite - 0.22

In total you would need to average 3,004 minerals harvested from each NPC kill and after reprocessing imperfections. That took about 10 minutes to pull out of the data. I could slice it up better if I had more time. I'm still new to Eve and I don't have the skills to live in Low-Null sec so I don't know what the rat droppings are like there. In high sec it's a waste of time to try and harvest off those miner irritant NPC pirates. So pro's, can you get that many minerals from mission running per kill?

I have a lot more doubts based on my own experience so far. My alt and I have managed to sell close to 1 Billion ISK in the last few weeks based off just mining and turning asteroids into bullets and bombs. I'm still relatively new to this and I got that far in a three months. I found mission running a horrible way to try and get rich. The regular miners must be pumping out billions a week in this stuff.

So when is Hulkageddon? Are there dates? This will be my first and I hope I will get a t-shirt at least? Some cool swag? There better be booth babes or I'm out.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#310 - 2012-01-11 03:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Our booth babe is Backdoor Bandit Big smilehttp://evefaces.com/?Backdoor%20Bandit

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Udonor
Doomheim
#311 - 2012-01-11 04:25:53 UTC
Note the lack of any attempt at an official website. Tweets are the medium of viral rumors.

So all you silly people, under the new GOON management, its no surprise that a false Hulkageddon frenzy was started by a rumor. That is no accident. Its GOON humor. As in typical GOON joke there is the official straight man that they can later point you back at and say "see you fooled yourself, he never made that promise -- you assumed". Then there are all the rumor stirrers by which they trick you into doing what they want at YOUR expense -- supplying the assumptions without any concrete source.

I highly suspect that there will be no official contest with prizes. But there will be numerous false starts via rumor. The joke is as much on eager gankers as on miners. CLASSIC Goon humor. Expect the rumors of Hulkageddon starts to keep kicking off minor frenzies until no one pays attention.

Official GOON policy is that Hulkageddon is year around at modest levels -- i.e. as opportunity and the itch presents itself. Duping prize seekers makes them laugh. GOONs just weave that "volunteer" effort into their latest market schemes.

If Hulkageddon really was to be in February there would be a website by now. The website would show early donors and current expectations as to prizes and categories (which in the past was expanded when unexpected donations came in late) and official ideas as to possible start dates.

Look at this as a process by which GOONs convert a burdensome contest into an EVE holiday where annually people look to the GOON leadership for suggestions on what chaos would be fun and most benefit the GOONs - for no material benefit at all.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#312 - 2012-01-11 13:50:22 UTC
Or Helicity might be hella busy right now and setting things up as and when he can.

But hey, dont let reality bite you in the tinfoil on your way out Roll

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Toshiro GreyHawk
#313 - 2012-01-12 05:12:04 UTC
Caesar - thanks for the data.


.
Tyral Severan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2012-01-12 14:36:18 UTC
Any newbie-loving-hugging corps for casual ganker? Lol
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#315 - 2012-01-13 02:25:31 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:


Like I said, miners/manufacturers do not rely on mission loot for their mats. They make the majority of everything they need from mining. They dont go and buy what they can mine (unless in a pinch maybe).

The ony thing high sec miner.manufacturers need to buy is low/null sec ores. You cant get enough zydrine or megacyte from mission loot alone either.

My point stands.


When the market for bc's is running, my alt can make ~140 battlecruisers a week with 2 BPOs, consuming some 3.5bil in mins. I might well have pulled that much with salvaging destroyers and a noctis (OVER MY ENTIRE CAREER), but I sure haven't mined it, and I sure am not doing it either way in a week, and I'm definately not going to stock pile 3.5bil in capital waiting for the market to tick up either. When the market isn't running, I build something else.

I need only look at the buy orders I compete with for mins supply and the market limiting sell orders (ie the stacks that people cannot price past), to know that profit taking in t1 manufacturing is dominated by people that do what i do, and not by people who mine a couple of ships worth of mins and then sell that at whatever the market is currently set at - which means they get bugger all profit from the manufacturing action (and I know quite a few that will build 3 hulls and then sell them to reproccers).
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2012-01-13 03:34:35 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Note the lack of any attempt at an official website. Tweets are the medium of viral rumors.

So all you silly people, under the new GOON management, its no surprise that a false Hulkageddon frenzy was started by a rumor. That is no accident. Its GOON humor. As in typical GOON joke there is the official straight man that they can later point you back at and say "see you fooled yourself, he never made that promise -- you assumed". Then there are all the rumor stirrers by which they trick you into doing what they want at YOUR expense -- supplying the assumptions without any concrete source.

I highly suspect that there will be no official contest with prizes. But there will be numerous false starts via rumor. The joke is as much on eager gankers as on miners. CLASSIC Goon humor. Expect the rumors of Hulkageddon starts to keep kicking off minor frenzies until no one pays attention.

Official GOON policy is that Hulkageddon is year around at modest levels -- i.e. as opportunity and the itch presents itself. Duping prize seekers makes them laugh. GOONs just weave that "volunteer" effort into their latest market schemes.

If Hulkageddon really was to be in February there would be a website by now. The website would show early donors and current expectations as to prizes and categories (which in the past was expanded when unexpected donations came in late) and official ideas as to possible start dates.

Look at this as a process by which GOONs convert a burdensome contest into an EVE holiday where annually people look to the GOON leadership for suggestions on what chaos would be fun and most benefit the GOONs - for no material benefit at all.

hahahahaha holy **** why did you capitalize it every single time

also to the post above asking about 3k minerals/rat, that's a very very poor drop from drones. Especially the bigger BS ones, they drop a shitton. Also hauler spawns that drop millions of units of minerals.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2012-01-13 06:08:02 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
This is what happens when goons become bored.


I was a goon once on my first account, true story.

Do you have stairs in your home?


Battlestars best stars.

Where we are going, we won't need stairs.

So you were not a goon at all is what you are telling me.


Pffft, real men were goons on their current account Cool

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Archon Theo
Archaic Clique
#318 - 2012-01-13 13:44:06 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
I was trying to help out the little men by providing some reasonably rewarded and easily hauled jobs but it turned out it was more like handing my stuff to morons for safekeeping.

.,.EVE-Online in a nutshell.,.Literally.,.
Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#319 - 2012-01-13 13:49:44 UTC
Bloody Caesar wrote:

*snip*

I have a lot more doubts based on my own experience so far. My alt and I have managed to sell close to 1 Billion ISK in the last few weeks based off just mining and turning asteroids into bullets and bombs. I'm still relatively new to this and I got that far in a three months. I found mission running a horrible way to try and get rich. The regular miners must be pumping out billions a week in this stuff.

So when is Hulkageddon? Are there dates? This will be my first and I hope I will get a t-shirt at least? Some cool swag? There better be booth babes or I'm out.


As for the mins - as has already been covered, drones drop a LOT of mins. Based on your numbers, miners *may* provide nearly half of the low-end mins....but apparently rats/mission loot supply nearly 100% of all high end minerals, because thats a pretty low number per rat on those...


As for missions....You are a moron.

At 3 months old, there is no way in hell you are properly skilled to run missions, particularly if you have focused on mining. I can only assume that you have run a few L1 or maybe L2 missions and given up on them as "hopeless".....Which is equivalent to trying out mining in a rookie ship and giving up on THAT is a completely worthless activity.....

A well skilled mission runner can EASILY match the isk/hour of a max skilled hulk running LEVEL 3 missions.

With level 4 missions, the isk/hour blows mining out of the water - AND on TOP of the isk from the bounties, etc you can get nearly as many minerals as you would have from mining....There is a reason that so many people sit around and run them all day - FAR more than the number of people who can actually be bothered to mine regularly...Even if we count all the bots.

Perhaps you shouldn't poke your nose in regarding a subject you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about....

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?
Toshiro GreyHawk
#320 - 2012-01-13 15:41:14 UTC


The thing is ... what we need is hard numbers ... not more opinion. Peoples opinions on what can EASILY be done - are all bullshit. Human beings chronically over claim. Look at fighter pilot victory claims as an example. Where the data for both sides was available - checking each sides known losses against the kills claimed by the other side - it's pretty much about 2 to 1 of claims vs. actual kills. The thing is - these fighter pilots were not lying - they really believe their claims - they were just wrong. Most human beings believe what they want to believe - these guys wanted to believe they'd shot down an enemy aircraft - so they did.

The other thing is - it has to be data for all of EVE - not just one persons alleged experience - and it has to come from a neutral source ... not someone's bragging. Yeah ... I would imagine that dedicated mission runners know more about running missions than dedicated miners - but then the opposite would probably be true as well. It's been my personal experience that most mission runners running their mouths didn't know jack **** about mining either.

I don't give a **** who makes more money or where the most minerals come from - I'd just like to know what the actual figures are. I mine because I like mining and detest running missions. Jumping through some NPC's hoops is not my idea of fun. I do it to gain standings but that doesn't mean I like it. If someone else does like it and it does make them more money per character - then good for them. If most of the minerals in EVE do come from mission runners - that's fine - but how much comes from each? What is the percentage that comes from miners and what from mission runners?


This other is the last part of the equation - if we're arguing how much money is made or minerals produced per player rather than per character. Most serious miners have multiple characters - as mining lends itself very well to working multiple accounts or team operations between players - each of whom may have multiple accounts. You can and I do use multiple accounts to run missions - but not on the scale that you can do it with mining. Here again - the question isn't how many characters does some one particular guy manage but - how many does the average person manage. Again - I don't know. I too am primarily familiar with my own personal experience - not hard, comprehensive data from a neutral source.


There used to be like a quarterly EVE economic report ... but I don't remember what kind of data it contained.


Anyway ... this is all off topic ... but I guess we're passing the time waiting for details on the event.

*shrug*

.