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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hulkageddon V: Unholy Union update: TONIGHT AT 0:00

Author
Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#321 - 2012-01-13 17:43:34 UTC
There are no hard numbers. EVE doesn't track exact details of how many mins people get from mining vs mission loot. The market DOESN'T CARE. Even if you had exact numbers of all minerals mined and all minerals from refined loot, you STILL wouldn't have the answer because you wouldn't know how many people USED the minerals they obtained from either method. The reason people generalize instead of providing detailed specifics is because there ARE NO DETAILED SPECIFICS AVAILABLE....why people keep asking for them I have no idea....


As for mining vs missioning - I only brought it up because Mr. Caesar claimed (with his vast 3 months of experience) that missioning was a horrible source of income, and mining was a huge money maker...

I personally do a good amount of BOTH level 4 mission AND mining in a hulk w/ Orca support, and I ASSURE you that while mining is certainly a nice way to make some spare change while paying only minimal attention to EVE (aka: while working, watching tv, reading a book, eating, etc.), level 4 missions are a LOT better at generating isk when you actually plan to be at the keyboard paying attention to the game.

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?

Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-01-13 18:26:59 UTC
Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:
claimed (with his vast 3 months of experience)


Well, your handle does not instill my confidence in your veracity.

It seems that some people do know what they are talking about, some people are actually trying to learn from the postings, and most people think it is fun to throw the random sabo into the works. Guess who is who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law http://krypto451.deviantart.com/art/Care-Bears-Spanking-168001373 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Uu1yD-v0  George Carlin "They're Just Words."

Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#323 - 2012-01-13 18:39:32 UTC
Billionaire Carebear wrote:
Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:
claimed (with his vast 3 months of experience)


Well, your handle does not instill my confidence in your veracity.

It seems that some people do know what they are talking about, some people are actually trying to learn from the postings, and most people think it is fun to throw the random sabo into the works. Guess who is who?


Meh, feel free to try both out for yourself - in fact I encourage it. It is fun to play ALL aspects of the game, and whether you do it by hybridizing your main account or making a separate alt for every facet you try (even dedicated forum posting perhaps P)

After you've tried it, you'll see I'm right.

Otherwise, if you are too lazy to bother, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it - even if you don't know who I am Shocked

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?

Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2012-01-13 19:03:43 UTC
Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:
It is fun to play ALL aspects of the game, and whether you do it by hybridizing your main account or making a separate alt for every facet you try (even dedicated forum posting perhaps.


I plan to eventually do it all-on-one. Though I have inferred that there is some advantage to having an alt in control of your personal corporation. I sandbox and mission, as I skill up. I honestly do not understand the people who are here only to battle, and at first that is all I thought hulkisissydom was all about. But I have come to understand that it is a needed splash in the pond, lest the game become too placid. Now that I am decently skilled in a battleship, as a result of the upcoming event, I feel more confident to take on more aspects of the game. And that, I think, is the point of this thread that has been drifted away from. Very soon now some sleepy players are going to be awakened to the realities of the game they have chosen to play in, and this thread is the forewarning, should they choose to head it. I for one, am looking forward to it, perhaps not this year, but definitely next year, I plan to survive in a Hulk through several engagements so that I can post pics in the forums.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law http://krypto451.deviantart.com/art/Care-Bears-Spanking-168001373 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Uu1yD-v0  George Carlin "They're Just Words."

Toshiro GreyHawk
#325 - 2012-01-13 21:54:29 UTC


As to the presence of hard data - yeah - I don't know of any myself but ... I don't know everything. Caesar did at least try to come up with some numbers.

Someone might have been aware of something I wasn't but ... very possibly not.

The thing is ... data such as yours and mine, founded on personal experience - is of limited value in understanding the dynamics of the game. It's useful for judging what we individually, as players, might want to do - but not in verifying how much impact miners vs. mission runners have on the game.

I think someone made some remark about the miners all going on strike or something (someone always does in these threads) and that's what started all this off. It's really just an academic debate. How much we do pull in personally is what matters to us ... personally.



How many characters you are able to control while running missions vs. how many you control mining - doesn't tell us how many characters the average person who is mission running or mining controls and what their relative pay out is.


I understand that there are players who run missions afk. They just turn on the F.O.F. missiles, unleash their drones and let the ship go kill rats by itself once it's in the mission area. Not something I'd really trust the AI of this game to do with any of my ships but I do understand that there are people doing that. But other than doing that - running missions for most of us takes a lot more attention - if only to target new rats - than mining does because the cycle times on the miners are longer and the asteroids last longer than the rats do. Thus - if you have the equipment to do it - someone running a large number of characters could be pulling in a lot more through mining than someone not running as many characters. With mining - the limitation is more on the equipment you have and how many clients it can run than mission running and how many ships you can manage ... barring large numbers of ships dependent on the AI's for survival ...

Of course, one of the things that has hurt miners the last few updates is that these updates have not been friendly towards older hardware and software. I lost two systems to one of them, one through hardware and one through software obsolescence. I was able to swap some parts and get one of them back on line - but even on my surviving machines - the program bloat has made it harder to run as many clients as I used to. While I've got ... at least what was a newer gaming machine a couple of years ago ... my other computers are showing their age and becoming obsolete faster than I can replace them. So - basing things on my experience - that could be a factor in other players who are running multiple clients.

*shrug*

But yeah, we'll probably never know. CCP could tell if they really wanted to but ... well ... they've probably got better things to do than provide data to settle academic arguments.


.
Mookie Quantico
Doomheim
#326 - 2012-01-14 11:34:06 UTC
Kinda disappointed this didn't begin on Friday the 13th... somehow, it would have seemed appropriate, if you can use the word "appropriate" around anything or anyone "Goon". Pirate

Azura Solus
Rules of Acquisition
#327 - 2012-01-14 21:48:20 UTC
Wow this whole thread has become a circle jerk of what is better Mining or missoning - Answer Neither More pew pew less QQ


Now that my catalysts are ready to go give us a date so the carnage can begin.


Bloody Caesar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#328 - 2012-01-15 17:45:08 UTC
Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:

As for missions....You are a moron.


Wow, such vitriol for what? A debate about where stuff is made in a game? What's with the hate hard on for miners? Is it really that critical to life and self identity that the name calling comes out?

Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:

At 3 months old, there is no way in hell you are properly skilled to run missions, particularly if you have focused on mining. I can only assume that you have run a few L1 or maybe L2 missions and given up on them as "hopeless".....Which is equivalent to trying out mining in a rookie ship and giving up on THAT is a completely worthless activity.....


You are correct that I have no experience with missions higher that level 2. But that's why I went looking at the data. That and I also have no desire to keep hauling janitors & homeless people till I get something in the magical level 3 mission level.

Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:

A well skilled mission runner can EASILY match the isk/hour of a max skilled hulk running LEVEL 3 missions.


And besides your gut instinct and personal experience you base this on what (your initial argument was stuff comes from mission running instead of miners and rocks, not level 3 mining missions)? I admit my EVE Online experience is limited which is why I looked at the data, imperfect as it is. Thrilled at the prospect of what other names you can call me I decided to dig a bit deeper into the data. The previous set of numbers is based on minerals per sale and assumes mission runners reprocess and sell that to industry types to make the pew pew toys for sale. I admit it was a quick and dirty and full of assumptions but it's better than the "cause I say so" argument you seem to be fond of.

Below are the base mineral counts divided by the number of NPC kills required to make all the stuff for sale during that same two week period. To be clear this represents what each single NPC kills needs to produce in minerals for the final products on the market to be made as recorded by Eve Central.

Tritanium - 211,906
Pyerite - 30,173
Mexallon - 7,158
Isogen -1,585
Nocxium -528
Zydrine -310
Megacyte - 273
Morphite - 62

These are conservative numbers remember because 1) they are base needs and don't count reprocessing and manufacturing inefficiencies, 2) doesn't include all items on the market. The number of NPC kills is accurate because CCP provides it. If we had all the information for the other have of the equation it would only prove you need more per NPC kill. How much is speculation. Could be 20% or 100%, but it is more and not less.

The question you have yet to answer to justify your belief is do you get that much on average per NPC kill that you do? If you have facts prove otherwise please do present them (facts not opinions). I am willing to accept mission running produces the stuff for sale in Eve if the data supports it. In three months I produce a billion a month in sales from mining rocks. The experienced miners have got to be raking in way more. I've seen belts get cleared in entire systems and it's got to go somewhere. That these numbers are much higher than the first set is evidence that most stuff manufactured is from minerals mined, not purchased on the market.

Ubiquitous Forum Alt wrote:

Perhaps you shouldn't poke your nose in regarding a subject you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about....



Plenty of people poke their nose in plenty of places. That's how we learn. When companies want to expand into new markets they collect data and make decisions. That's why the human race crawled out of caves and formed cities and later microwave dinners. I appreciate your love of mission running really. Who am I going to sell my goods to if no one runs missions or plays pirate pew pew? But you need to let go of this hatred of miners dude. Even the goon pirates deserve some love for keeping us on our toes.

While your eating your microwaved hot pocket, ponder this funny irony. This thread is about the impending doom of miners in highsec as pirate goons descend upon us. Instead of quivering in fear we are arguing about mineral counts and ISK per hour. Helicity and the Goons must be pissed.
Blackcamper
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2012-01-15 17:49:34 UTC
Is there a data for when HG starts. so i can start blowing up some ships. and what are the prices this year..?

There Was NO WARNING Of Their ARRIVAL! They Had No MERCY! They Gave NO QUARTER!

http://screenshotuploader.com/s/1307gxodd

Billionaire Carebear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2012-01-15 18:21:43 UTC
http://twitter.com/#!/helicityboson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law http://krypto451.deviantart.com/art/Care-Bears-Spanking-168001373 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Uu1yD-v0  George Carlin "They're Just Words."

Zala Hoto
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#331 - 2012-01-16 09:39:13 UTC
For too long has the insane tyranny of the self-appointed pod pilot demigods been a yoke under which the average asteroid has toiled. The constant life of fear and **** is one which all the asteroids of New Eden will soon be freed from, allowed to live out their lives in peace and quite. Just as the Minmatar have freed their brethren enslaved by the Amarr, we Pod pilots will now work to free our asteroid brothers and sisters from the tyranny of our more deviant fellows.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#332 - 2012-01-16 14:45:47 UTC
Bloody Caesar wrote:
During that same time period the following market sell orders were recorded by Eve Central;

268,094,664,958 Tritanium in 5,998 orders
49,142,233,183 Pyerite in 3,513 orders
12,613,728,296 Mexallon in 3,383 orders
3,389,054,261 Isogen in 1,949 orders
820,400,787 Nocxium in 2,551 orders
337,525,050 Zydrine in 1,521 orders
94,691,946 Megacyte in 1,183 orders
24,304,748 Morphite in 551 orders

As experienced folks know Eve central relies on volunteers for collecting data so it doesn't capture everything. The real amount could be higher. I only looked at the mineral group (groupID=18).

For that amount of minerals to be supplied by the NPC kills it would work out to the following per kill;

Tritanium - 2,408
Pyerite - 441
Mexallon - 113
Isogen - 30
Nocxium - 7
Zydrine - 3
Megacyte - 0.8
Morphite - 0.22


As an example of the type of loot which drops from those rats: Neutron Blaster Cannon I- 25 Megacyte, 321 Nocxium in one item. That item will drop from about one in fifty Serpentis battleships. There are plenty of other comparable items (railguns, electron or ion blasters), so at least you get the idea that the reason more minerals don't come from missions is that an awful lot of loot and wrecks are left to rot.

Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#333 - 2012-01-16 17:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ubiquitous Forum Alt
Bloody Caesar wrote:

*extremely long rant because you are illiterate*


I really don't see any way I could make it clearer that when I broke it out and referred to your comments about missioning vs mining, I was referring ONLY to your comment about making isk through missioning vs making isk through mining, and NOT referring to minerals on the market.....

My ONLY comment regarding minerals from mission loot vs mining was that BASED ON YOUR DATA it does seem likely that all or nearly all high end minerals do come from mission loot.

If you are incapable of comprehending the English language, please cease trying to converse/argue in it.

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?

Ubiquitous Forum Alt
#334 - 2012-01-16 17:39:23 UTC
Billionaire Carebear wrote:
http://twitter.com/#!/helicityboson


Is there a date given there? I don't do twitter....

I don't log in - I don't need to. My very existence griefs people. They see my name, and they instinctively fill with rage and indignation. Deny it all you want - but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted, would you?

Squidgey
Perkone
Caldari State
#335 - 2012-01-16 17:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Squidgey
The only time mining makes sense is:


  1. When you are half AFK.
  2. You have lots of friends to chat with.
  3. You are in the middle of a sweet episode of teen mom. (Janel is particularly hilari-bad @ life for example)
  4. You have a 30 pack that aint gonna drink itself.
  5. You have a blueprint that requires A LOT of specific minerals RIGHT NOW (and you dont wanna spend isk to get them) and will result in you making gobs and gobs of money.


Even then, unless you are pulling a goodly amount of M3 per hour, its often more economical to simply purchase the required minerals. Not always, mind you. But often enough. I have found this to be especially true of faction BPCs I find.

But here is the kicker, which has been mentioned. I sell all items which are worth more intact and sold than reprocessed. The rest, like ammo, gets reprocessed and stored in a big shiny station container called "Minerals".

Even if I only do one level 4 a WEEK, I typically have enough minerals laying around to build a faction frig from a BPC obtained via exploration, which can result in many tens of millions for an hour of manufacturing time and 20 minutes of scanning and shooting. Thus negating any personal need to mine entirely.

And lets not forget the 10-40 million per mission in bounties + other loot you are getting (if salvaging is still economical to you that is). If you are burning up missions so fast that salvaging is a waste of time, then mining is an even bigger waste of time: You just buy the minerals. Raw profit is not as good, but the isk/hr is. Because the one thing miners always seem to forget is that minerals are not free. That is time you could be spending elsewhere.
Squidgey
Perkone
Caldari State
#336 - 2012-01-16 17:48:56 UTC
Edit because wrong button.
Pollo Rico
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2012-01-18 01:25:08 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
blah blah blah blah shoot miners blah blah blah
Pollo... He approves.

http://tinyurl.com/Pollo-Approves

Mokanor Lenak
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2012-01-18 10:06:57 UTC
Squidgey wrote:

[list=1]
  • When you are half AFK.
  • You have lots of friends to chat with.
  • You are in the middle of a sweet episode of teen mom. (Janel is particularly hilari-bad @ life for example)
  • You have a 30 pack that aint gonna drink itself.
  • You have a blueprint that requires A LOT of specific minerals RIGHT NOW (and you dont wanna spend isk to get them) and will result in you making gobs and gobs of money.


  • Or if you are a multi-boxer, you can clear a belt in 30 minutes with 4 hulks and an orca.
    Even in high-sec, you are doing about 100m if you know where to do it, and in a quiet system.
    enterprisePSI
    #339 - 2012-01-18 10:49:08 UTC
    Let's get this party started.

    The tears of the many, outweigh the tears of the few. Or the one. enterprise-psi©

    NearNihil
    Jump Drive Appreciation Society
    #340 - 2012-01-18 14:27:56 UTC
    You have my ships. Well, some of them.

    In other news, please update the OP so I can read whatever happened in this thread. Like **** am I reading 16 pages of internet arguments.