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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

First post First post
Author
Nou Mene
Krypted Gaming
K R Y P T E D
#81 - 2016-04-05 15:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nou Mene
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Quote:
Will data/relic sites spawn the Drifter?

The current plan is for the drifter to only spawn in the combat sites. The way that data/relic sites trigger site completion would cause some problems with the new NPC spawning. This may change however.


So in data/relics, until you can add the drifter, we keeping the same mechanics as now? or we getting these worthless escalations and no drifter?

EDIT: After testing
You can do the whole site with a solo dread (Naglfar), t2 fitted. Avengers last ca. 15s vs normal guns; ca. 50s vs HAW.
There is no reason to bring carrier/fax if you are solo farming, they add a value of around 70m/100m combined. Better watch holes with those toons.
So, at this stage, it looks like the site is designed to need even less cooperation.
Wladyslaw Loketek
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2016-04-05 17:14:40 UTC
So basically you just want us to leave W space. Or are you going to add more ways to earn isk in WH? Because it's hard to sustain multi pilot corp in W space as is. At least you could openly call it nerf, not "change"...
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#83 - 2016-04-05 17:47:51 UTC
Why not just fix the spawning mechanics so they don't regen during downtime? lol...

Not today spaghetti.

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#84 - 2016-04-05 17:55:08 UTC
Zeratul Stark wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
  • The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


  • Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)...

    Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    That's 342M for just the escalation portion
    Then add another 350M for the drifter boss
    Plus whatever the original site gives you

    C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.


    Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong.


    It does appear it is 38M per wave per conversations elsewhere.

    That seems exceptionally low for risking to add capitals to the site. I have a hard time seeing people using capitals in their static for that reward. It would basically necessitate that the drifter boss is beatable by caps only otherwise subcaps would be preferred in both cases.

    Seems that the drifter boss should be spawned only by capitals and should be balanced for capital opponents. If there is a desire for a subcap drifter boss, make that a different thing with different rewards and stats to encourage subcap use in the sites as well.
    Chesterfield Fancypantz
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #85 - 2016-04-05 22:29:10 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    Zeratul Stark wrote:
    Obil Que wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
  • The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


  • Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)...

    Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    That's 342M for just the escalation portion
    Then add another 350M for the drifter boss
    Plus whatever the original site gives you

    C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.


    Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong.


    It does appear it is 38M per wave per conversations elsewhere.

    That seems exceptionally low for risking to add capitals to the site. I have a hard time seeing people using capitals in their static for that reward. It would basically necessitate that the drifter boss is beatable by caps only otherwise subcaps would be preferred in both cases.

    Seems that the drifter boss should be spawned only by capitals and should be balanced for capital opponents. If there is a desire for a subcap drifter boss, make that a different thing with different rewards and stats to encourage subcap use in the sites as well.



    The caps dont increase the inherant value of the site, but will increase clear time. Especially if you use a HAW dread to cause the extra wave, as well as help clear the site faster. If you do the site twice as fast with a dread, its twice the isk/hr for the fleet.
    Chesterfield Fancypantz
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #86 - 2016-04-05 22:30:50 UTC
    Luft Reich wrote:
    Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
    Peter Moonlight wrote:
    Mimiko Severovski wrote:
    I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie.
    Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve.
    The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.

    This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about)
    Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.


    But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?

    Edit:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


    This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming.

    Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

    What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

    Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

    So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

    IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

    You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

    And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
    -New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

    -NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

    -Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

    -Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

    I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

    I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.




    The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points.

    Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone.

    This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now.


    See for you chester, since you are dumb, harder sleepers makes it more challenging for you to run sites. For most of the population who isn't bad at PvE the danger is really in getting killed by other people. Adding more sleepers isn't the way to do it, increase the chances of getting rolled into by supersp00ky people by a factor determined by sleepers killed, sites killed, drifters killed something like that. Increase exponentially from a base "roll in factor" and boom SUPER DANGEROUS FARMING.

    Or just add more sleepers so you can die in site with rattlesnakes lmao.


    Yeah. You could read what I said and realize my point rather then just insult me like the classless clown you are.

    I said they should increase the numbers of rats in site to make sure that the rats have a constant amount of points on the fleet to make it so if a new sig spawns they cant just warp out, thus making them more vulnerable to PLAYERS.
    Samsara Nolte
    Untethered
    Almost Competent
    #87 - 2016-04-05 23:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
    Well i´m somewhat left wondering, why those of us living in a low class system with a C5 static get to fight those Drifter Bosses.
    I mean Fozzie you yourself said they will be the hardest NPC ever designed for EVE, they will be reasonably killable by capitals and extremly hard by subcap fleet.

    As of now the ones who finished the C5 sites whole where guys like us living in low class space who have to venture in our statics to make our isk. Because we can´t escalate the sites and we can´t keep those holes around for 4 days.
    So we had to bring our ships out of our hole, out of the protection of our home, away from the possibility to fast reinforce our fleet into the danger to let them possibly rolled out ... an still be barred from being able to make the big isk sleeper escalations offer.
    Then unlike the C5 and C6 residents we have to farm our static to get more isk than our towers burn through in a month.

    So i have to say i find the changes somewhat intresting –
    But i have mixed feelings about this -
    Sure it´s a good thing, that those not living inside a c5 get a piece of the isk pie which was exclusive to those living there – which was somewhat justified through the fact that they might have to fight enemy capitals but the disparity was to large given the effort we had to put in in comparison to them.
    On the other hand, we have to fight this Drifter Boss everytime we complete a site with subcapitals because we can´t bring anything bigger and are even before that limited in the number of ships we can bring through the mass limitation of our connection.
    So i´m left wondering how you will manage to make this Drifter a challenge for those capitals while on the other hand not letting it´s power get out of hand against a sub capital fleet.
    Then despite it´s high value, it´s nowhere near enough to replace a lost ship -
    and the prospect of a fight which is gonna take forever against a single NPC which scrams is not very appealing and I don´t want us to become the guys who are gonna let the site stand with the remaining ship in it because we can´t hope to compete against this Drifter Boss.
    (And you should keep in mind there are those of us who are good at math – so if to kill this thing takes longer than to run another site(s) worth 350millionen nobody´s gonna kill them)

    What brings me to my next point -
    Have you considered that there might be corps out there who are going to spawn this drifter with malicious intent.
    I mean it might be pretty easy fighting a few of these by using capitals – but that won´t be true for sub caps.
    So what does prevent a C5 resident from spawning Drifter Bosses and letting them roam the wormhole ?
    You can essentially get the Drifter Bosses to protect your home sites depending on where they will be able to warp to and even to fight potential aggressors, visitors and the like. (we are not aware of CCP might allow those Drifter Bosses to do ...)
    So you can generate an army of NPC to fight for you ... especially the low class corps will have no means to face them if they exceed a certain number – from what i imagine might not be a high one.
    And if they even prevent you from crashing a connection to such a wormhole system by engaging your rolling ships forcing us to keep this wormhole around until it dies through time,
    then this change defeats the whole purpose for us to have such a static connection when only the C5 residents will be able to fully utilize their sites and defeat the Drifter Bosses.

    And what you should at all times keep in mind is, that most corps living in j-space a rather small.
    So even if the Drifter Bosses can be beat by subcapitals it should only take a rather small number of pilots.
    Most corps can´t be expected to field 20 ships - hell there are a lot of us who struggle to field ten or less.
    Would be a huge change to barr the small corps from the sites C5 has to offer -
    Than as of now it is not a rare event to see 2 Pilots flying those sites -
    either in Tinker setups or Maruader.
    I don´t mind if the entry for those sites is upped a bit – but when you have to bring 20 guys to challenge the Drifter Bosses most of us living in low class space with a C5 statics better start looking for another wormhole. Than this are near unachievable numbers for most of us.

    And the last point is -
    Like some have already stated while this might be an up in isk for us that live in low class holes who occasionaly run C5 sites. It is a nerf for C5 residents. I´m not sure if you thought the consequences of this through – it is already hard to get people to live in j-space, then let´s be honest it is work! In other parts of eve you sit in your ship undock an there is content – but not in here. Here you have to put in hours and hours of combined effort to get your content and even now a lot of us are struggling or are even left far behind in regards of what you can earn by null sec anomalies the escalations of them and the earnings you can make doing incursion.
    So only from a finacial viewpoint the incentive to commit to a life in j-space is slim as it is.
    With the introduction of Citadels and the no asset safety in wormholes ( and by in my opinion substantially reducing the bar for evictions), and therefore the risk of loosing your assets, you don´t create more reasons to wanna live here on the contrary the opposite is true.
    And j-space Population density is thin as it is – we don´t need another mass exodus of j-space residents.
    Sabriz Adoudel
    Move along there is nothing here
    #88 - 2016-04-06 01:05:55 UTC
    In principle, this sounds like an excellent idea.

    However like all changes, the mechanics need to be thought out carefully.

    I strongly suggest you design six to ten versions of the Drifter boss (sometimes one ship, sometimes more than one), make all versions realistically beatable with subcaps, and spawn a random version after each site but with a strong predictable bias toward Drifters that are tailored to the present wormhole.

    For instance, one fight might be against three Drifters with remote repair capabilities, and might spawn 70% of the time in a Cataclysmic Variable, 3% of the time in wormholes with other effects, and 10% of the time in holes with no effects. One of them could be designated as the probe-able one if needed.

    One boss should only spawn in C6s - others might be a bit easier and be able to spawn in C4s.

    This keeps the fights varied and unpredictable, while avoiding the issues of having to commit capitals to your static.

    I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

    DG Athonille
    Doomheim
    #89 - 2016-04-06 01:47:43 UTC
    Quote:
    Quote:
    If there will be more reasons to do more in the static would increasing the wh mass be possible? To allow more battleships through to help run sites? To allow for 2 capitals to go there and back?

    Quote:
    I'm definitely open to making tweaks to high-class WH connection mass if the community likes the idea. I encourage people to contribute to Corbexx's thread here where he asks that very question. I can go either way with this topic, depending on what the consensus in the WH community ends up being.


    As an alternative that might balance concerns of smaller WH corporations with the desire for more PvE and PvP content, perhaps a new capital module could be introduced that would halve the mass of the ship similar to the warp disruption array on HICs?

    Like the changes by the way ~ exciting, challenging, unique, changing the environment daily, and at the heart of "why WH?"

    Terrorfrodo
    Interbus Universal
    #90 - 2016-04-06 09:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
    Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:
    Terrorfrodo wrote:


    Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it – same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.


    Frankly speaking I do not believe that the Drifter Boss has any place in sites that are NOT fully escalated.


    I guess the idea is to encourage people to do more pve in the static instead of just at home. If the new system is properly balanced, we should see groups running non-escalated c5 sites in their static with specialized subcap fleets to kill the juicy drifters. This should make less ISK/hour than running escalated sites at home with capital support, but is evened out by the fact that you basically have an unlimited supply of sites, so paradise for bears who really like to pve. And good for gankers because more pve fleets to hunt. And those will be out of home so bigger chance to catch them before they get back to their forcefields... or (soon) Citadel.

    edit: And because these pve fleets will have to be quite strong, and even be able to point stuff, they will be quite formidable foes for the gankers. This may even encourage mostly-pvp groups to do more group pve because the pve fleet is not just sitting ducks anymore. It is already a half-pvp fleet and can be fully converted with a few more ships. Maybe it will even be possible to effectively make ISK while baiting for fights at the same time.

    .

    Rek Seven
    The Persuaders
    #91 - 2016-04-06 12:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
    At first glance, these changes sound exciting but after i took some time to think about it, it's clear to me that these changes do not improve the wormhole experience as they should. I believe CCP's goals with these changes are as follows:

    1. To stop wormhole sites from being farmed
    2. To encourage site running outside of your home system
    3. To dissuade people from using capitals

    I think most people will agree that points 1 & 2 are good design goals but I doubt any reasonable person would want capital wormhole gameplay to suffer as it will do in the new system... which it will because the risks are not balanced with the rewards.

    How it will shape out

    At first, people will farm their connections in sub capital fleets without fully completing the site, to prevent the Drifter from spawning. Once players figure out how to deal with the Drifter without losing a ship, they may kill the drifter. However, if the drifter takes too long to kill using sub caps, it will probably be better not to spawn it and just move to the next site.

    It will be vary rare that capitals are used outside of a home system for two reasons - firstly because you can currently only bring one through your connection and have it safely return and secondly, because the maximum you can hope to receive from doing this is an extra 50 million.

    So, what we will see is less capitals in space and instead, people will switch to more mobile, harder to catch sub-capitals, that can disengage from the site and roll their hole at the first sign of trouble.

    How is should be

    People have been saying for years that wormhole PVE should be more interesting and typically site the following as good ways to do this:

    1. Add a random aspect to site spawning to make it less predictable
    2. Stop people farming the same site for multiple days
    3. Encourage site running in the static

    The proposed changes do not do what we have been asking for and in has a huge potential of ruining wormholes space PVE in C5/C6 systems. However, with a few modifications CCP's plan could achieve the above design goals.

    Firstly, capital escalations should still be a thing that rewards bringing capital ships, while at the same time making sites more challenging. I propose that it only takes one capital to fully escalate the site. However, the escalation sleepers will come in randomly timed waves. For example, you warp a dread on field and the first escalation immediately spawns but a random timer also starts in the background, so that sometime in the next 3 minutes, the next wave will spawn. The combined escalation value needs to be enough to encourage you to risk your ship... 400 mil should do it (a 10th of the cost of a dread).

    Secondly, to stop sites from being farm-able, the site should simply de-spawn within a couple hours of 3 sleepers (including the trigger) being killed in the first wave.

    And lastly, the Drifter should be somewhat random and it should be extremely more valuable. The appearance of the drifter should be chance based, as follows:
    * A very small chance (10-20%) of a drifter spawning if you run a site without capitals.
    * A medium chance (50-60%) if you use one capital
    * A high chance (80-90%) if you use multiple capitals

    The Drifter should also come in different forms depending on your fleet. For example, there should be a high neut power one if you bring a force auxiliary, a high alpha one if you only have sub-caps and one with a super weapon if you bring multiple caps. To keep us guessing, the different forms should be a little random.

    Also, i think the drifter should be valued at between 700m-1b to make it worth hunting them and to make up for the removal of the ability to farm the same site.


    I believe that the amendments I'm proposing will make capital escalation far more interesting and actually worth the time an effort to run. At the same time, we would see more people doing things outside of their home system which will also be great for the PVP community.
    Anthar Thebess
    #92 - 2016-04-06 13:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
    Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure.
    Using sleeper salvage as build materials.
    Perfect for wormhole space - adding interesting aspect of wormhole travels.
    Obil Que
    Star Explorers
    Solis Tenebris
    #93 - 2016-04-06 13:42:18 UTC
    Anthar Thebess wrote:
    Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure.
    Using sleeper salvage as build materials.
    Perfect for wormhole space - adding interesting aspect of wormhole travels.


    Too easily gamed
    Install rig
    Jump hole
    Remove rig
    Fight
    Install new rig
    Return
    Anthar Thebess
    #94 - 2016-04-06 14:01:28 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    Anthar Thebess wrote:
    Maybe CCP could introduce new rig, that will reduce mass at the big cost of the structure.
    Using sleeper salvage as build materials.
    Perfect for wormhole space - adding interesting aspect of wormhole travels.


    Too easily gamed
    Install rig
    Jump hole
    Remove rig
    Fight
    Install new rig
    Return


    Not so easy if the material requirements will be proper.
    If single capital rig will cost you 400mil, you will not destroy it just to farm some sites - hole invasion is totally different thing.
    But as WH will have now citadels, ability to field more capitals is good trade.

    Just some thought, maybe this rig could use sleeper salvage and blue loot as production materials.


    Eva Ambrosa
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #95 - 2016-04-06 19:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Gallifreyan
    As CEO of Bro's I mostly support this idea. Full disclaimer: We were in the midst of setting up a [Isk Printing] hole in a c5 (we live in a c4 >c5/c4) when news of changes coming to escalations was announced, so we put it on hold.

    That said, the concept of solo escalating dreads was broken, though I'm sad we didn't get to enjoy it (who doesn't like to take advantage of broken mechanics!!!), we're one of the young up-and-coming corps and that sorta comes to the territory with being late to the game.

    If sites spawn more frequently that does sound appealing as one could conceivably run say 10 sites, spawning 10 drifters, then warp a cap fleet onto one of them (as the other 9 warp to defend it) and have a pretty awesome fight on your hands worth about 3.5b, sounds pretty fun to me?

    Anyway, also excited about giving C4 space something new. We didn't move to C5 space before because we didn't think we were big enough, now we're big enough and I'm hesitant to give up having two statics. Give high class space 2 statics and I might feel differently but making C4 space more exciting by adding drifters helps too!

    [Edited by ISD Gallifreyan]
    Valyn Horn
    Boys in Plaid
    #96 - 2016-04-07 06:48:12 UTC
    Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.

    You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.

    Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much.
    Eva Ambrosa
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #97 - 2016-04-07 13:51:41 UTC
    Valyn Horn wrote:
    Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.

    You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.

    Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much.


    But do you really just live in wormhole space to farm isk? I mean, for most of my guys this isn't a significant enough change to affect the viability of WH space. It's still significantly more profitable then null/incursions, we still love the mechanics of WH space and the nature of PVP.

    Even if you do live out here for just ISK, you can make 600m/h dual boxing in a static C5 with very little risk (1.2b in ships on grid) and limited or no setup time (don't have to roll/crit holes). Where else in eve can you make even close to that amount with so little ISK on grid?

    That said, I mostly agree that the value of the drifters should be about twice what it is if CCP is expecting folks to use 6B dreads to kill them. I like using 10% as a general rule for w-space, ~10% of the value of ships used to clear the site should be dropped in blue loot and salvage.
    ISD Gallifreyan
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    #98 - 2016-04-07 19:15:47 UTC
    Eva Ambrosa wrote:
    As CEO of Bro's I mostly support this idea. Full disclaimer: We were in the midst of setting up a [Isk Printing] hole in a c5 (we live in a c4 >c5/c4) when news of changes coming to escalations was announced, so we put it on hold.

    That said, the concept of solo escalating dreads was broken, though I'm sad we didn't get to enjoy it (who doesn't like to take advantage of broken mechanics!!!), we're one of the young up-and-coming corps and that sorta comes to the territory with being late to the game.

    If sites spawn more frequently that does sound appealing as one could conceivably run say 10 sites, spawning 10 drifters, then warp a cap fleet onto one of them (as the other 9 warp to defend it) and have a pretty awesome fight on your hands worth about 3.5b, sounds pretty fun to me?

    Anyway, also excited about giving C4 space something new. We didn't move to C5 space before because we didn't think we were big enough, now we're big enough and I'm hesitant to give up having two statics. Give high class space 2 statics and I might feel differently but making C4 space more exciting by adding drifters helps too!

    [Edited by ISD Gallifreyan]

    Lets just keep the racial stereotypes out of the conversation.
    It seems unintentional so we will chalk it up as a warning and let it go.

    ISD Gallifreyan

    Lt. Commander

    Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

    Interstellar Services Department

    Valyn Horn
    Boys in Plaid
    #99 - 2016-04-07 20:47:50 UTC
    Eva Ambrosa wrote:
    Valyn Horn wrote:
    Most of my corp is pretty unhappy with the reduced income potential. We figure we may as well move to renter null and live the easier life. We didn't fit up a 20B isk escalation fleet to make chump change.

    You should at minimum keep the original escalation income on top of the added drifter income. Keep in mind that with the old system of farming the sites you could have made 2.6B in the 4 escalation days (not including clearing the site on 4th day). So keeping the old escalation income + drifter income would give us a new site value of around 1B, which is a big reduction from our old potential site value of 2.6B. But still much better than the new proposed site value of 600ish mil. If anything, the drifter should be worth twice as much, or even a bil.

    Maybe if you up the site spawn rate to compensate, and/or fix the problem with site accumulation in dead systems the changes would be viable. But all the stated changes, with none of the compensation just means we're moving out. We won't care that much.


    But do you really just live in wormhole space to farm isk? I mean, for most of my guys this isn't a significant enough change to affect the viability of WH space. It's still significantly more profitable then null/incursions, we still love the mechanics of WH space and the nature of PVP.

    Even if you do live out here for just ISK, you can make 600m/h dual boxing in a static C5 with very little risk (1.2b in ships on grid) and limited or no setup time (don't have to roll/crit holes). Where else in eve can you make even close to that amount with so little ISK on grid?

    That said, I mostly agree that the value of the drifters should be about twice what it is if CCP is expecting folks to use 6B dreads to kill them. I like using 10% as a general rule for w-space, ~10% of the value of ships used to clear the site should be dropped in blue loot and salvage.


    Maybe not ONLY for ISK, but the main reason behind WH life for us was isk. And maybe we won't up and leave, but it sounds like we may not bother with the escalations. We have a Static C4, so we may end up farming easier sites at a faster rate with less expensive ships. Which is annoying considering the amount of money we expended on our capital fleet for them to be mothballed. But isk farming will always follow the path of least resistance.

    I imagine what will happen is we won't bother with our own sites as much and speed farm C4 sites more regularly. Then maybe if visitors spawn some drifters and accumulate in system, we will clean them up once in a while for some burst income.
    TurAmarth ElRandir
    Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
    #100 - 2016-04-08 05:52:23 UTC
    Hope this gets answered... here goes.

    We live in a C4 and run C5's for ISK... but we are not a large corp so while "Fozzie says" the Drifter End Boss will:
    (1) be killable by subcaps, just much longer and harder to kill...
    (2) still have the super weapon but will not "always" one-shot someone... (meaning it 'will' sometimes one-shot someone...)

    As we are a small group, we have to make up for numbers by running fairly expensive subcap fleet comps. In our comps, the loss of one BS will run us a approx 1.3 bil ISK... We simply cannot afford ANY one-shot losses... and at a max of 400m ISK per site it would take approx 3 full sites just to replace 1 loss... and that's only IF you kill the Drifter every time. Without the Drifter kill @ 50m ISK per... well that's just untenable.

    So what I am asking is...

    "Fozzie, do you see this new mechanic killing off the ability of smaller (4 to 6 man) subcap groups to be able to effectively and profitably run C5/6?."

    TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/