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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

First post First post
Author
Marox Calendale
Voices of War - Research and Production
Evictus.
#121 - 2016-04-15 11:57:52 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space.

I think "nerf to income" is not the right term for what will happen. It is more an increased risk for the same income, because you have to use your statics instead of just farming your homesystem.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#122 - 2016-04-15 12:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
It's increased risk and increased time for less reward, thus it's a nerf... Don't forget you can't fully escalate the sites in your static.

I've never liked the ability for people to farm the same site and I agree with the idea that people should be encouraged to run sites in their static but the reward needs to be worth the risk/effort.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2016-04-17 08:25:04 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space.

if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#124 - 2016-04-17 10:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Jack Miton wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space.

if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct.


So you prefer that people sit Citadel spinning or going out to HS to run incursions for their isk?

Despite claims it is already becoming increasingly rare for people to be doing capital escalations in EU/US prime... And you think decreasing income and increasing effort will improve wormhole space?! Straight

Wormhole PVE should be challenging and risky but it should also be lucrative.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2016-04-17 23:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
That's all well and good but the fact is that this is a nerf to income and will most likely result in less people doing things in wormhole space.

if by 'things' you mean doing nothing but farming in complete safety, then youre correct.

So you prefer that people sit Citadel spinning or going out to HS to run incursions for their isk?
Despite claims it is already becoming increasingly rare for people to be doing capital escalations in EU/US prime... And you think decreasing income and increasing effort will improve wormhole space?! Straight
Wormhole PVE should be challenging and risky but it should also be lucrative.

Have you actually paid attention to what has happened in wspace over its lifetime?
Let's break it down.

Originally it started out with no one knowing wtf they were doing, as you'd expect, from where it moved into a very hostile period where the aim of living in whs was almost exclusively to pvp in whs at the upper levels of corps in c5-c6 space. C6 space was populated by almost exclusively pvp based corps who lived in C6>C6 systems for the express purpose of being able to run into other like minded corps more often to throw down.
pve only groups who would not fight were not tollerated in high end wspace and were actively hunted down and evicted by the high end corps, often on a weekly basis.
then people started figuring out how to run cap escalations.
they figured out that forming coalitions of semi pve/pvp corps allowed them to rake in endless amounts of isk and have the artificial (artificial because these alliances typically had very limited life spans) numbers to fight off the large pvp corps, which they did.
this lead to the general failure and collapse of the old power structure in the upper levels of wh corps, which happens, things change.
what it lead to was a fairly long period of instability with medium sized corps floating from one alliance to another every few months is a seemingly endless search for the biggest blob behind which to hide while running escalations.
pve only groups were left largely alone, people spent more time away on pve expeditions with skeleton crews than they did in their home system with pvp toons and wspace in general raked it in.
this lead to an effective arms race between many incredibly wealthy corps who drastically reduced recruitment policies where the end goal was always raw numbers over quality pilots and eventually a few groups rose to the top and became the new power base in wspace.
these groups decided that rather than fight each other, as the old corps did, they would ally themselves with each other in order to completely lock down their base of power, allowing them to dictate how high end wspace developed.
their primary goal became establishing an insurmountable isk advantage by evicting any and all corps, pve and pvp alike, from C6 space and PVE valuable C5s, ie: magnetars, and replacing them with either rental corps who paid tribute to be allowed to farm in those systems, or their own alt corps that they used to farm themselves.
the hay day is over for this structure already, i suspect mostly since they really dont need any more isk, but the effects on this structure will be felt in wspace for a long time.

over the years wspace has undergone many political/structural changes but each and every one of them was linked either directly or indirectly to cap escalations and maximizing profits from them.
the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#126 - 2016-04-18 06:20:16 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
...Good stuff worth the beginnings of this forum...


You could also add that CCP has done a lot to make escalations easier (no need for a scanchar to look for new sigs, T2 siege, buff to all non-Rev dreads, etc)

People argue escalationrunners are the only content left for them to kill but forget that these are the reason wormholespace is in its current unhealthy state. In the same way nullrattingbuffs and incursions have turned lowend Whs into the deserted golddiggertowns they are now.
Oh, and less escalations farmed might actually lead to better ribbinprices again.


On topic: CCP, pleae do not release it in the current sisistate. The sites and esp the escalationwaves are way too easy. Combined with the fact that the new carriers are OP once you figured out how to not loose squads it is a horrible joke. Same with k-space sites, running them with the new capitals/supercapitals is just printing money and seperates the game into people who can afford to run stuff in capitals versus the rest. While the rich, big or safe guys get 3 to 6 times the money...
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#127 - 2016-04-18 08:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Jack Miton wrote:
Stuff

That's a good brief summery of the history of wormhole space jack, even if it is only from a C5/C6 dwellers perspective.

Personally, i started from a C2 and worked my way up through C4, C5 and C6 space where I am now. The key contributing factors for me wanting to get to higher class wormhole was the isk earning potential and opportunity to play with capital ships. I'm sure that this applies to many other people.

Jack Miton wrote:

the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing.


Please explain why you think less capital ships being vulnerable to attack in space, is good for wormhole and the groups whose main activities revolve around hunting them... People who want to farm will still do so, only they will use harder to catch ships and more efficient methods.

You talk as if CCP could take away all isk from wormhole space and people would still PVP for to love of it. Nerfing income will only lead to even more empty systems and people looking to k-space for their isk.

Don't misunderstand me, i'm not advocating for the continuation of farmable sites. I'm all for the changes providing they increase the value of the drifter and the escalation sleepers, and change how they plan for escalation waves to spawn.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#128 - 2016-04-19 02:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
the time of escalations need to end. less people running escalations is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Please explain why you think less capital ships being vulnerable to attack in space, is good for wormhole and the groups whose main activities revolve around hunting them...

do you really take so much pleasure in blowing up defenseless caps? it's roughly on par with shooting an undefended POS or jumping 20 T3s only a hulk, but each to their own i guess.
yes, you will have less free kills. I am ok with this.

to be frank, people only hunt farmers in wspace these days because that's the only thing people do i wspace these days. farm.
ill bet you whatever you want that the vast majority of these groups would rather have actual fights.

Rek Seven wrote:
You talk as if CCP could take away all isk from wormhole space and people would still PVP for to love of it.

this 100% used to be the case. people used to live in WHs because of the small gang nature of the fights and the lack of random bullsh!t like jump timers and docking games. (not to mention local)
we already see a few small groups returning to this mentality and play style as pvp only corps, I don't see why it couldn't be this on a larger scale again.
the most fun ive had in WHs for years was in SUSU and the early days of iso5 when we were just f*cking about in random T1 ships fighting randoms.
fighting people just for the sake of fighting them is the best reason you'll ever get to pvp. i know that isnt how you operate but i highly recommend you try it someday.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#129 - 2016-04-19 06:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Times have changed and nothing is unknow in wormhole space anymore. It's sad to say but the fact is, everything in wormhole space revolves around PVE now. The old PVP days eventually deteriorated in to arranged fights, which is something I hate. I prefer enguagements that happen dynamically and PVE can sometimes bring that about.

We have discussed this before but I've alway said I believe WH space lacks sufficient conflict drivers. PVP only corps are simply unsustainable in wormhole space without carebears to hunt. These groups end up getting most of their fights from k-space which doesn't help the situation.

Anyway, we are going off topic at this point. The player base has said everything that needs to be said, but it doesn't look like CCP are paying attention.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#130 - 2016-04-19 10:46:44 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.


Hecates in a W-R, job done. Oh noes, you DD'ed my 70M T3D you bad Drifter, eat 24,000 DPS from my pals. Boohoo.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#131 - 2016-04-19 13:23:15 UTC
Thanks for your feedback so far folks!

We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely.
Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.

We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Sabastian Cerabiam
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#132 - 2016-04-19 13:39:01 UTC
I have heard rumors about Caps being allowed in Null Sec escalations. Any truth to those rumors?
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#133 - 2016-04-19 14:47:11 UTC
Yupp, that escalationwave just killed a carrier in under a minute. Twisted
Luft Reich
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#134 - 2016-04-19 16:01:37 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Yupp, that escalationwave just killed a carrier in under a minute. Twisted


Can you describe the experience?

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post

Zenafar
#135 - 2016-04-19 20:45:07 UTC
Ok now I can't kill escalation wave in C5 with solo Thanatos :D (good)
Took several minutes to kill me yet I didn't kill a single escalation BS
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#136 - 2016-04-19 22:16:47 UTC
Hmm, seems I got the broken drifter again. Just did another c5 anom and after completing the site, the new structure decloaked. I switched one of my two Paladins to tackling Loki, then attacked the structure and drifter appeared. He moved to orbit my Paladin but otherwise does nothing. No neuts, no damage. I'm shooting him for 12 minutes now and I guess it will take another 10-15 minutes to take him down. So significant HP buff from last time.

To the other posters: Were you killed by the drifter or before by cap escalation sleepers? Because my drifter still doesn't do ****...

edit: Woah, this drifter has shields, not just armor. His name is [no messageID312281] :D

edit2: Unexpected turn of events! After doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, when I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.

I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.

.

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#137 - 2016-04-19 22:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely.
Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.

Nice. A good simple fix to cater for lower end PVE :)

Terrorfrodo wrote:
When I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.
I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.

yeah there's no way a marauder is gonna solo a drifter, assuming theyre anything like the current drifters, hence this change being needed.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

oResolution
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2016-04-20 04:00:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
have large signatures to ensure that they can be engaged fully by capital ships

Are you sure? Because these guys seem to like orbiting my Rev @ 15km, with speeds of 490-500m/s (which seems a bit excessive for "capital ship" targets.

I don't know how big their sigs are, but without support I'm unable to hit them with standard capital guns, and the High-Angle's barely scratch them.

I understood the need for a web/paint loki for the old escalations, since those were essentially battleships. But if these are supposed to be "fully engaged by capital ships" then that doesn't seem right.

Also, this is probably part of the same problem, but my Thanatos' templars were hitting for 15-20 damage per volley PER SQUADRON against these guys with their main guns. The rocket salvos hit fine, but the main guns hit these guys for LESS damage than they were against the frigates...
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#139 - 2016-04-20 04:37:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks for your feedback so far folks!

We have adjusted the spawning of the new Drifter so that people who can't handle it (marauders for instance) can skip it completely.
Under the new system, a structure will decloak once the site is completed and you have the option of spawning the drifter by shooting that structure.

We've also done a major balance pass on the new NPCs over the weekend, upping the challenge significantly. We're very interested in hearing what you folks think about the version that is on SISI right now. As a side note, the Drifter does not doomsday in its current iteration, but the neuting power has been ramped up quite significantly to provide a significant challenge without the danger of "one shotting" people.


While you're under the hood, can you make C4 waves spawn at reasonable ranges?
Zenafar
#140 - 2016-04-20 06:24:04 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Hmm, seems I got the broken drifter again. Just did another c5 anom and after completing the site, the new structure decloaked. I switched one of my two Paladins to tackling Loki, then attacked the structure and drifter appeared. He moved to orbit my Paladin but otherwise does nothing. No neuts, no damage. I'm shooting him for 12 minutes now and I guess it will take another 10-15 minutes to take him down. So significant HP buff from last time.

To the other posters: Were you killed by the drifter or before by cap escalation sleepers? Because my drifter still doesn't do ****...

edit: Woah, this drifter has shields, not just armor. His name is [no messageID312281] :D

edit2: Unexpected turn of events! After doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, when I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.

I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.


Well... week ago i killed escalation and Drifter with solo Thanatos. Real easy.
But now I can't kill escalation wave :) I tried just once but anyway escalation BS now have much more EHP, DPS, and looks like more powerful neut