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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

First post First post
Author
Dr No Game
Forgotten Godz
Warped Intentions
#41 - 2016-04-05 04:06:14 UTC
Well it was a good run, lads.
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2016-04-05 04:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chesterfield Fancypantz
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie.
Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve.
The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.

This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about)
Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.


But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?

Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming.

Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
-New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.




The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points.

Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone.

This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now.
Richard Knickson
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-04-05 05:05:19 UTC
WTB Guristas anom capital escalations..
Luft Reich
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2016-04-05 06:17:34 UTC
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie.
Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve.
The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.

This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about)
Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.


But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?

Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming.

Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
-New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.




The easiest way to add substantial risk to the changes is to make sleeper rats be plentiful and have lots and lots of points.

Make going to the site impossible to get away from if you're running the site. Then even if they do see a new sig, they are stuck in the site until its gone.

This is sure as **** not "more easy and less risk" then the current setup now.


See for you chester, since you are dumb, harder sleepers makes it more challenging for you to run sites. For most of the population who isn't bad at PvE the danger is really in getting killed by other people. Adding more sleepers isn't the way to do it, increase the chances of getting rolled into by supersp00ky people by a factor determined by sleepers killed, sites killed, drifters killed something like that. Increase exponentially from a base "roll in factor" and boom SUPER DANGEROUS FARMING.

Or just add more sleepers so you can die in site with rattlesnakes lmao.

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post

Timoxa Zero
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#45 - 2016-04-05 06:18:49 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Side note...

If the WH community knew Corbexx was going to join goons, he would have never gotten all our votes.

so now we have a goon helping dictate how WH sites work.



biz,
i dont want to call you out but i just have to at this point
besides complaining about wormhole pve changes from the company that runs the game and in no way guarantees solidifed concrete game mechanics you are complaining about a change this game has needed for several years which has been CHAMPIONED by your favorite goon. The reason he left (atleast i think) is that he saw the bad things happening to wormhole space and needed to get away to get an outside view on our environment. the current state of wormhole escalations are totally ruining the value of this game. everyone has a farm hole (even those who are/have been championing against the current state of escalations) which shows the fact that is is so insanely minmaxed and broken that everyone does it. You can 1 cycle 2 escalation waves in a hero dread. and assuming you spent 5-10 minutes per hour warping from site to site and escalations being 120 each, so 120(2) per 5 per hour - 10 = 50 minutes. thats like 2.4b per hour solo dreading which means you can pay your dread back in like 2 hours. let's not even get started with quad escalations, because those are even worse. even peter did them, and he was the ultimate krab killer, simply because it is such a viable and easy way of getting money. So I'd suggest rather than getting mad because you need to put a point on your pve ship you actually read between the lines and think about how this affects the game before you default to thinking about yourself
/rant
King Creator
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#46 - 2016-04-05 07:05:33 UTC
MUH SHEKELS!
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2016-04-05 07:15:26 UTC
I like the idea of this drifter.

I am worried about the distribution of the rewards though. I can understand why you put the value at the end of the site, you want people to complete them. However, the escalations pay so little there is no way I am risking my 4-5 bil capital ship. It may just be easier and safer to just kill the drifter using a subcap fleet.
Especially if you're running sites in your static you can just gtfo when something happens with minimal losses.
muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2016-04-05 07:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: muhadin
I like the changes overall. However i do have concern about site spawn rate. ex: the buildup of tons of sites in unoccupied holes. You should consider making so sites only have a total lifetime of 4days, versus the current 30 days(Instead of 4days from prewarp). I believe currently sites despawn after 30days after spawning, but if you cut that down to 4 days sites would cycle through whs faster, so if you are not there actively running them they could be gone the next couple of days.

This may be swapping around the way the sites are done which is totally cool, but this DRASTICALLY reduces the amount of isk the sites generate in total. If current site spawn rate is left the way it is, eg sites building up in unoccupied whs. It could be a week before you have more than 4-5 sites to run period. You lose about 75% of the previous isk gained over the 4 days versus the new method of sites only for 1 day.

Sites can and will still build up if their total lifetime was 4days and i imagine you will still come across holes with 15-20 sites where you can run lots of sites. This would be a pretty great change to go along with these changes.

TLDR: Make sites total lifetime only 4 days so sites are constantly despawning and respawning by themselves all over wspace.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#49 - 2016-04-05 07:44:25 UTC
I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.

.

Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#50 - 2016-04-05 08:22:14 UTC
I just realized: Does the drifter have to have a single-target-dd? Could he maybe have one of the new ones with AOE ?

I think the DD is the most worrying part about these changes and was the part that turned many people off the Drifter incursions.
On the one hand no more soloing of highend sites is a good goal in my eyes since they are supposed to be the hardest PvE in game. On the other hand I think Marauders are cool and there are so few activities to use them for.
ISD Rontea
ISD STAR
#51 - 2016-04-05 08:26:22 UTC
Do new drifters have interdiction nullifier feature?
Can heavy interdictors`s Scripted Warp Disruption Field tackle new Drifter?

ISD Rontea

ISD STAR Executive

Волонтёр группы по взаимодействию с игроками

Interstellar Services Department

Bleedingthrough
#52 - 2016-04-05 08:30:37 UTC
Just came back to the game to kick some Bees in the butt. o7

With these changes I might move back to w-space in the long run. They potentially enable a playstyle I enjoyed in the past: living out of a lower class dual static WH. For me the problem always was that you could not generate enough income from a C5+ static to finance a meaningful PvP fleet for the stuff I wanted to do. I am happy that the exponentially more troublesome (= content generating) farming of statics gets some love. I hope that it will not be necessary to have “farming holes” in order to finance activities in “pew holes” in the future.

Anyone tested these changes with a subcap fleet yet?
Mena en Distel
Critically Disrupted
#53 - 2016-04-05 08:52:54 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.

Dread have dpsa same for 2-3 rattlesnake at this moment on sisi. do you think that a problem for using 3 rattlesnake?
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#54 - 2016-04-05 09:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Fielding 3 capitals for an extra 150 mil is not worth the risk neither is fighting a drifter that can potentially insta-pop one of your ships. These sites will not get completed at the rate you think. The drifter will need to drop significantly more in loot to make people fight it.

I'll probably do a more detailed post later but right now, these changes don't seem very well thought out.
Conjaq
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#55 - 2016-04-05 09:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Conjaq
Off the bat it seems like a nerf across the board. with both good and bad consequences.

* Less value for running escalations almost a ~23% cut.
** The value of actually doing the escalations are incredibly minor. I'm guessing that doing a site without a dread(and carrier after the changes) damage capabilities is going to take forever, because of the big boss geared towards capital ships. So that means the effective amount of sites you can do per hour goes down drastically.(nerf)

* The amount of people needed to run a site, will increase... You need something that can point that sleeper boss, either with a scram or 3x points. Which means either you run with more accounts, or you bring more people to split the isk, which is a direct nerf. On the positive side it requires group play, which is good.

*If you decide to run escalations, you're effectively going to drop ~10 bill on the field. and only gain a meager 100 mill or so extra in loot, that's a very very very minor increase...(nerf)
** Thinking about it, if you decide you want to escalate the sites and bring in another 3 guys(dread, fax, carrier). you're actually getting less isk, than if you decide not to escalate the site, because you need to split it between more people... That seems like a bad of way incentivizing group play.

All in all, i suppose the idea was to reduce the amount of isk one can get from running sites in Wormholes, which is both good and bad.
I would have much prefered that you had nerfed the isk for those that ran escalations with the use of a single dread, while keeping the isk to gain when doing group play with others.

Instead it's seemingly a nerf across the board, which does not really incentive group play

That being said, it's hard to know judge such a change, without having tried it. Can we expect to try it out on sisi before it hits in tranq?
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#56 - 2016-04-05 09:54:51 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
would be nice if sisi made it easier to test these changes.

The market should have faction and deadspace mods seeded because thats how were going to fit ships on TQ. It would also make it so people wouldnt have to /copyships every day to steal mods off ships they have in stations.

as it is the /moveme command only gives you limited options of WH's and effects.

When you use the /moveme command it should give you the option of typing in the system you want to move to.

Scanning chains on sisi is a major waste of time.
Anthar Thebess
#57 - 2016-04-05 10:32:04 UTC
Can we also migrate bigger part of blue loot into better sleeper salvage?
Blue loot generate just isk from thin air, salvage is used to create new ships, and thank to this increase rotation of the isk in the system.
Sakul Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-04-05 11:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakul Aubaris
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie.
Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve.
The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.

This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about)
Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.


But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?

Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming.

Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
-New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.




Pretty solid summary in my eyes.

Tripple the payout for escalations (upgrade damage und tank of escalation NPCs matching the higher payout offcourse), make it nearly impossible to kill the Drifter Boss without caps and it maybe worth it using them.
That will be about ~360m for a C5 fullescalation and ~450m for C6.
Still less than the actuall escalationpayout of about ~585m . which is farmable.
I just don't see the point for this beeing a capital pve desing with the current status.
Iam Cloaked
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2016-04-05 11:24:37 UTC
Obviously the point of nerfing W-space income is that more wormholers leave their corps and join Goons, where they can rat much more safely.
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
Disavowed.
#60 - 2016-04-05 12:07:36 UTC
Ok so if i'm understanding this correctly i have a couple of questions and/or observations.

Judging by the overall change in cap escalations, what is the point now of actually using caps? I ask as i used to run them in a C5 with old corp, not hero dreading but full fleet, as in not a single time we did them were we not risking over 20b in ships. The risk was mitigated by the projected gains from running the full sites lest the trigger and running each one 4 days straight. That was worth the risk of a 20b fleet of caps/subcaps.

Now, with these changes, i don't see how any reward is balanced with the risk of corps fielding a full 20b cap escalation fleet for such a poor gain, once per day multiplied by how ever many escalation capable sites they have in their home hole. No corp will risk the fleet needed for a measly 300-400m one off gain.

Whats stopping me and my buddy in our C5 flying a pair of Paladins to run the normal non escalation versions of C5 sites up to the final NPC on the grid ( to stop the bad ass doomsday-ing drifter spawning ) and earning ourselves 250-330m in blue loot not including ribbons from salvage every 8-10mins and then doing the same the day after for up to 4 days? I know fozzie mentioned he was doing away with the ability to leave the last trigger thought DT to re-spawn the site for capital Escalations, but if im running them in 2 Paladins and not even spawning the big boss, will the site still re-spawn or de-spawn the same? Even if they're only doable a single time per day before they de-spawn the same as capital versions, doing them in sub caps is much preferable to risking a 20b fleet.

350m bonus from doing the cap escalations from the meaty drifter at the end is in no way worth any corp risking a full escalation fleet, maybe if it was farmable like they are right now, but not when you can only do it once. Lets not mention the spawn rate for sites will be terrible still due to the amount of empty C5/C6's to recycle them.
Corps that run cap escalations right now will be able to do maybe 1 or 2 per week with the current spawn intervals, 700m per week divided by a full escalation fleet is laughable, you'd be better off running high sec incursions in relative safety.

Im currently neutral to these cap changes as i dont actually run them anymore so have no stick to beat, these are just a couple of initial thoughts/worries that spring to mind.