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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

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Author
Khar-Toba
Doomheim
#61 - 2016-04-05 12:09:33 UTC
Can each capital just spawn an additional Drifter Boss at the end of the site?

This gives a total of 4 Drifters (which means lower the loot dropped to around 250 each) so reward for this will be 1.3B - If they behave like HAW Dreads (which would be great) this would force the capitals to stay to fight them, as the Subcaps would get popped!

The extra Drifter Bosses will also attempt to warp off, if the capital that spawns it leaves grid - chasing the Cap?

The Devs must remember that we need a reason to risk our ships... we Min Max for a reason, and IMO this is very similar to the whole Trollcepter bull!
Anthar Thebess
#62 - 2016-04-05 12:26:08 UTC
Khar-Toba wrote:
Can each capital just spawn an additional Drifter Boss at the end of the site?

This gives a total of 4 Drifters (which means lower the loot dropped to around 250 each) so reward for this will be 1.3B - If they behave like HAW Dreads (which would be great) this would force the capitals to stay to fight them, as the Subcaps would get popped!

The extra Drifter Bosses will also attempt to warp off, if the capital that spawns it leaves grid - chasing the Cap?

The Devs must remember that we need a reason to risk our ships... we Min Max for a reason, and IMO this is very similar to the whole Trollcepter bull!


I hope that CCP will make WH place where nomads live.
Group putting 20 citadels in selected group of wormholes just to have permanent living spot is not something that i would expect from "deadly unknown space"
What you suggest is allowing much larger group of people to settle in a wormhole without any need of looking for PVE content outside of it.
Stormbringer999s
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-04-05 12:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Stormbringer999s
Dr No Game wrote:
Well it was a good run, lads.


+1

Regarding the new Boss, as always, the wormhole community will come up with a workaround. I don't see it as being anything other than a power play by CCP in reducing the isk/hr of C5/6 w-space. Sure, it will be interesting if more than a handful of these things are let loose so to speak, but it would still come back to having the ability to generate isk. If you can't generate isk you're not in the game in any way shape or form. So I have to ask, how is that going to generate content?

Another question, while the power brokers were mulling this idea over, did they ever ask themselves why do people bear/jew? Of course they did, so we know the decision to implement these changes was not based on creating content but reducing our ability to generate isk. If the majority of us generate isk to fund our pvp, what does that do for content? Maybe I'm being a little naive here but for me at least it's not rocket science, if you take away my ability to earn isk, you take away my ability to fund my pvp, and that doesn't create content, it kills it.

Oh yeah, while I'm on the subject, this **** about farming your static to negate losing the ability to farm and maybe creating content at the same time??? Seriously, what do you think residents are going to do now that they've lost the ability to farm their sites? C'mon, it's not rocket science, your all thinking it............they'll simply run them. Now we're on the same page. They'll be very few sites left untouched, hence farming your static will become a mute point. Rage rolling for pve anyone??? : )

So with that being said, these guys, the power brokers, know exactly what they're doing, their ******* with our ability to exist and operate within w-space. this whole premise of creating content blah blah blah, it's all bullshit, but why, why go down this road, what's the end result??? There's something else driving this change and it isn't isk/hr or content creation. Any other consequences that come out of it, trust me, are all part of the equation, however discretely CCP tries to disguise them. Conspiracy theorist, indulge me please : ))
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2016-04-05 13:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
So quoting from our corp.....

"Step 1: Warp in 11 dreads"

? how does this balance ?
(11 an exageration but 4-5 i can see happening)

you dont need to "escalate" a site, you just start off with all your dps...

No Worries

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#65 - 2016-04-05 13:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
  • The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


  • Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)...

    Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    That's 342M for just the escalation portion
    Then add another 350M for the drifter boss
    Plus whatever the original site gives you

    C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.
    biz Antollare
    The Dark Space Initiative
    The Initiative.
    #66 - 2016-04-05 13:24:55 UTC
    I love the posts from people who don't fly caps, can't fly caps, don't own caps, don't live in capital wh space, but have plenty of feedback on this.
    Zeratul Stark
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
    #67 - 2016-04-05 13:48:27 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
  • The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


  • Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)...

    Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    That's 342M for just the escalation portion
    Then add another 350M for the drifter boss
    Plus whatever the original site gives you

    C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.


    Pretty sure you're the one who's bad at reading, friend. The post says "38m per WAVE," not "38m per NPC." A wave is comprised of 3 (or 4) NPCs. You can hope that it means 114m per escalation wave, but the way his post is worded means that it's 38m per escalation spawn, not 114m. That means all 3 escalation waves would get you 114m, not 342m. Unless he clarifies this further, we're definitely not reading it wrong.
    Nou Mene
    Krypted Gaming
    K R Y P T E D
    #68 - 2016-04-05 14:04:51 UTC
    I don't know if I like this...

    So big income nerf.... read HUGE!!

    So first concern: Will spawn rates/despawn timers be fixed to increase the number of sites available in wh? Nowadays you get I'd say close to 1 NEW site a day (from my small c5 experience).

    Pre- changes: You need at least one solid dread to run the sites, then 3 caps than can be place holders, risk in terms of losing the hulls increases but value decreases. If you get plus one solid dread and plus one solid carrier risk risk greatly diminishes, but you were putting 15-20b on the line (for a 600-700m payout site).

    Post- changes: Need one solid dread, sounds like HAW will be able to do the sub-cap part. You can have a placeholder fax/carrier. So a lot of less risk. But as a corp mate said, you can warp all dreads, blap in seconds, and then fax/carrier (all depends on the alpha), HIC shoul not be primaried by drifter so, need one HIC to point the drifter and its done. Sounds doable under one siege cycle....

    I encourage Fozzie or any other @ CCP to come do quads with some of the guys that ussually does (or try them in their current form by their own), and see how what I am reading sounds even less as PvE designed for caps...
    Btw, most problems with today's design is that npc spawn in the same place every time. Its what makes the sites doable with minimun fleets.
    Terrorfrodo
    Interbus Universal
    #69 - 2016-04-05 14:11:21 UTC
    Mena en Distel wrote:
    Terrorfrodo wrote:
    I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.

    Dread have dpsa same for 2-3 rattlesnake at this moment on sisi. do you think that a problem for using 3 rattlesnake?


    I doubt that 2-3 rattles have same dps as a dread. Maybe with the new dread subcap weapons, but the escalations and the drifter are going to be capital-sized so you would fit the capital weapons on your dread. No way 3 rattles will do the same damage.

    But even if they did... to field three rattles you need three people or three accounts that have to be plexed. So yes, for efficient farming people will still use dreads. Three typical wh rattles are not even that much cheaper than one t2-fit ratting dread.

    .

    Jack Hayson
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #70 - 2016-04-05 14:19:30 UTC
    Terrorfrodo wrote:
    Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they?

    Yes, people do precisely that. Just find a red giant system and watch them krab.


    The proposed changes will just disincentive using caps for PvE even more.
    Why warp in caps if all it does is adding a ton of EHP to the site for basically no payout?
    Just run the site with subs and let the drifter escape. Then probe it down and drop a single dread on it.


    Cap escalations need fixing, but this is just pants on heads retar ded.
    If you want to stop people from farming the same site for days just have them despawn at downtime when triggered.
    You could kill hero dreading and bomber farming by randomizing and spreading out the spawn location.
    Add the escalation sleepers into the normal waves to force people to run the entire site instead of just farming the escalation. (If you have caps in the site the normal wave will additionally contain capital NPCs)
    Luft Reich
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #71 - 2016-04-05 14:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Luft Reich
    biz Antollare wrote:
    I love the posts from people who don't fly caps, can't fly caps, don't own caps, don't live in capital wh space, but have plenty of feedback on this.



    Biz pls don't stop spewing salt this is great.

    Edit: playing biz bingo, we got a corbexx callout, lack of capital experience callout, ccp bring short-sighted callout. With the free spot I almost got a bingo

    ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post

    Shilalasar
    Dead Sky Inc.
    #72 - 2016-04-05 14:22:51 UTC
    Anthar Thebess wrote:
    Can we also migrate bigger part of blue loot into better sleeper salvage?
    Blue loot generate just isk from thin air, salvage is used to create new ships, and thank to this increase rotation of the isk in the system.


    What would cripple salvageprices even more and kill lowend-WH income even worse than escalationfarming already has. If notr all the loot was blueloot but f.e. something used for citadelconstruction on the other hand.


    I see a lot of people claiming using capitals would not be worth it because you only get a few 100M more.
    That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h

    If CCP pushes the lootbalance back towards the escalationships or the normal site we will find us in the same situation we are in right now of not completing sites. Some adjusting might yet be needed once we have figured out how to kill those rats most efficiantly.
    Jack Hayson
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #73 - 2016-04-05 14:32:35 UTC
    Shilalasar wrote:

    That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h


    Dreads get nerfed pretty hard with citadel. You won't be blapping sub caps with the big guns like you do now, so you'll need a sizable sub cap fleet anyway to clear the "normal" NPCs.
    Malcolm from Marketing
    Klaatu Technologies
    Disavowed.
    #74 - 2016-04-05 14:33:34 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • These new escalation spawns come in up to three waves, one for a dread, one for a carrier and one for a force auxiliary. There are 3 NPCs in each wave in C5s and 4 per wave in C6s.
  • The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


  • Pretty sure you are all very bad at reading (I hope)...

    Escalation wave 1 (dread) : 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 2 (carrier): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    Escalation wave 3 (fax): 3 NPCs, 38M ea. = 114M
    That's 342M for just the escalation portion
    Then add another 350M for the drifter boss
    Plus whatever the original site gives you

    C6s have 4 per wave at 51M ea.



    'Per wave' not 'per NPC'
    So more like 114m for 3 waves plus 350 for big boy giving roughly 460m per site. One time run only.
    Nou Mene
    Krypted Gaming
    K R Y P T E D
    #75 - 2016-04-05 14:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nou Mene
    -------- next... How to erase?
    Nou Mene
    Krypted Gaming
    K R Y P T E D
    #76 - 2016-04-05 14:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nou Mene
    Shilalasar wrote:

    I see a lot of people claiming using capitals would not be worth it because you only get a few 100M more.
    That is a nice red hering and completely wrong since you also get way more reppingpower/dps per pilot. If you can choose between running the site with 5 dps+2 logi or dread+1 dps+2 logi you not only get the bonus escalationmoney but you also have to split between less people -> more isk/h


    That only has sense when you have higher number of sites.. in wh the cap is in number of sites not isk/hr... (but are caps, but one is more important imo)

    Jack Hayson wrote:

    Dreads get nerfed pretty hard with citadel. You won't be blapping sub caps with the big guns like you do now, so you'll need a sizable sub cap fleet anyway to clear the "normal" NPCs.



    You can bring any number of same type caps at once... my idea is bring 2-3 HAW dreads and 2-3 Big guns dread... one group deals with the escalations (you know bring carrier/fax at range and cloak), the other deals with the site.
    Terrorfrodo
    Interbus Universal
    #77 - 2016-04-05 14:43:43 UTC
    Jack Hayson wrote:
    Terrorfrodo wrote:
    Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they?

    Yes, people do precisely that. Just find a red giant system and watch them krab.


    The proposed changes will just disincentive using caps for PvE even more.


    Why "even more"? People dont run escalation sites with subcap kitchen sink fleets now. Or those who do get absolutely crappy income from it because it's very low-efficiency and has terrible payout per pilot. Soloing c2 sites with a BC is much more profitable.

    Red Giant is a special case and I agree it should be nerfed.

    Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it – same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.

    As long as the drifter can be killed with a few capitals much more efficiently than with a few subcaps, there shouldn't be a problem. Capitals will be useful and thus, they will be fielded.

    Even better, since the dreads will shoot sleepers that are capital-sized, they can be properly fitted for capital warfare and not for tracking. This means they will not be such easy prey for gankers fielding gank dreads. Now the ratting dreads will be more dangerous defenders.

    .

    Nou Mene
    Krypted Gaming
    K R Y P T E D
    #78 - 2016-04-05 14:46:25 UTC
    Terrorfrodo wrote:


    Even better, since the dreads will shoot sleepers that are capital-sized, they can be properly fitted for capital warfare and not for tracking. This means they will not be such easy prey for gankers fielding gank dreads. Now the ratting dreads will be more dangerous defenders.


    Also they are un-nerfing scan res while sieged............
    Nameless2351
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #79 - 2016-04-05 14:47:46 UTC
    Maybe a bit offtopic and its an old idea but how about making it so that killing those Drifters increases the chance of wormholes connecting to that system? I feel like it would add a lot of depth to w-space gameplay.
    Alexhandr Shkarov
    ExDominion
    Evictus.
    #80 - 2016-04-05 14:49:41 UTC
    Terrorfrodo wrote:


    Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it – same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.


    Frankly speaking I do not believe that the Drifter Boss has any place in sites that are NOT fully escalated.

    All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.