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[Citadel] Capital Escalations and Drifter Boss

First post First post
Author
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#21 - 2016-04-05 00:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
Side note...

If the WH community knew Corbexx was going to join goons, he would have never gotten all our votes.

so now we have a goon helping dictate how WH sites work.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-04-05 00:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Interesting changes.

Please confirm the following.

- You are removing the ability to do solo dread in c5 sites. If people are after escalation isk they should have to risk a cap fleet with subcap support to web/TP the sleepers so caps can hit. Cause c5/c6 esculations should be about teamwork.

- You are removing the ability to use bombers to run c5 sites in red giants. As above if people want c5 isk they should have to risk more than a 40m bomber.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Jack Miton
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#23 - 2016-04-05 00:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
biz Antollare wrote:
having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now

it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem.
the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck.
personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-04-05 00:40:01 UTC
Can these or will these new NPC drifters travel using wormholes? If you intend to add this down the line would they prefer certain wormholes over others (C5 and higher for example) or will they travel anywhere without preference?

This might also allow a small solution to capping their number per system as you could meet the cap then just have a few fly through another wormhole ensuring that the cap is never reached.

Also will having a certain number of drifters in system open anything new in that system either through drops, sites, or how they interact? For instance if there are say 10 of them in one system will they work together more then if there were only 2 or 3? Or if there was something like 20 or more would they create their own warpable site, maybe in a way that relates to the hives or something else revolving around the whole drifter mystery.
Credacom
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2016-04-05 00:41:13 UTC
Cool changes, we really needed some new material to WH pve.

The old way forced anti social and the farm hole culture that really put WHs on the fast track to stagnation.

This puts ppl in their chains more with legit capitals.

I hope the WH mass triples. Battleship doctrines, more caps in statics, more possible openings for new sigs to open up between you and your pos.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#26 - 2016-04-05 00:44:57 UTC
Credacom wrote:

I hope the WH mass triples. Battleship doctrines, more caps in statics, more possible openings for new sigs to open up between you and your pos.


Please no. WH space is an amazing boon for smaller groups, looking to avoid blobs. The more experienced ones can even play with the mass to limit and uppunch even more. It shouldn't change.
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#27 - 2016-04-05 00:45:21 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now

it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem.
the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck.
personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength as well, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive.



the drifter should be aggressive and not run from a fleet.
Jack Miton
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#28 - 2016-04-05 00:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
biz Antollare wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
having to point the drifter is ridiculous.... fitting PVE ships with points now

it is completely stock standard to have points available in current escalation fleets anyway, this isnt really a problem.
the only way it's an issue is if the drifter spawns way out of point range and immediately warps off, as that would suck.
personally I think it should only have 1 warp strength as well, requiring 3 long points is a little excessive.

the drifter should be aggressive and not run from a fleet.

yes I agree, but to a point. he clearly stated it would fight or run based on what it sees, so I'm assuming if it sees 10 dreads on field, it's just going to nope out as fast as it can to discourage people from just blobbing the sites and I think that's good.

one thing this change hits VERY hard is soloing C5 sites with a marauder since if the drifter always spawns, youre going to need to be extremely careful not to actually finish the site with a subcap.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2016-04-05 00:49:00 UTC
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
I really like these changes and ever since I heard about them I have been very much supportive.

I would like to point out to CCP fozzie and others that IMHO they need to be capable of being run with entirely subcaps or a good number of corporations that exist in a lower class wormhole for the double static will be unable to participate in c5 sites. They should be harder and slower to run vs capitals, and we should miss out on the cap escalation waves (obviously) but IMHO one of the main points of this patch is to make it so that way running sites in a c5 static is a capable and comparable isk/hr.

My main concern is that the DD from the sleeper "boss" will straight up alpha ships off the field like t2 logistics. It will really suck to have a farming fleet together and be running sites only to lose a ship every single site we go into because a DD blaps it off. IMHO I think that the sleeper should be extremely difficult and high DPS, but should not just alpha ships off the field.

You said yourself that sleeper sites should be doable with subcaps just "very hard" and I just want to make sure that my concearns regarding the strength of the DD of the sleeper boss to be voiced.

I look forward to a new age of wormhole space where there is actually activity and populated wormholers, rather then the roll holes and PvE land we see now. Contribute to wormhole culture, communities, and farm in your static or GTFO.
.


Support. but escalations should only be doable with caps. the regular part of the c5 site should be doable with subcaps. (from my understanding the regular part of the c5 site is not changing in isk value)

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Justin Cody
War Firm
#30 - 2016-04-05 00:50:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! I.


YASS!
Jack Miton
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#31 - 2016-04-05 00:51:17 UTC
come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#32 - 2016-04-05 00:57:48 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense.



cause they ass-ended the value of the site. so they sorta have to.
Peter Moonlight
Suddenly Carebears
Holesale Operations
#33 - 2016-04-05 01:10:48 UTC
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
I would like to thank you a moment and say thank you Fozzie.
Thank you for making capitals essentially pointless in the basis of relevant wh pve.
The escalation payouts are literary not worth the commitment, when one can use battleships and other subcaps which can mjd at any sign of danger, yet they reap the rewards similar to the people commiting capital ships.

This will not be healthy for the delicate ecosystem of wh space (something another wh entrepreneur talked about)
Hunters will leave as there will be no capital ships to hunt, and with all the changes to make that harder (npc api, watchlist, wh spawn distances) it will simply not be worth the time and effort invested for already harder jobs for everyone involved.


But that is fine as people can take caps out of their whs and go run incursions with them right ?

Edit:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The new escalation spawns are worth ~38m per wave in C5s and ~51m per wave in C6s.


This is literary an insult for the capitals worth dozens of billions that are used for farming.

Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
-New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.


helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-04-05 01:12:58 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
come to think of it, I dont really see why the drifter should spawn if youre not using caps. doesnt really make any sense.



cause they ass-ended the value of the site. so they sorta have to.


only the capital escalation portion.. the regular c5 site spawn and isk should stay the same.

really doing the escalation with subcaps should go away. if you want the isk take the risk.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#35 - 2016-04-05 01:25:43 UTC
@Fozzie: If Drifters pile up when spawned but not killed, will they also warp into other combat sites to help their sleeper comrades while those are fighting against a player pve fleet? If this is the case, then a system could be easily made unusable for months by players (residents by accident or attackers/disrupters with malicious intent) completing one or more sites and letting the Drifter escape. The escaped Drifter would then start helping the sleepers in other sites making each new site much more difficult than the last one.

Meaning that if the residents for example tried to kill the Drifter in one site but failed and it escapes, they will go against two Drifters in the next site and fail even harder, and after that they can basically forget about doing PvE in their hole and move out. How will you stop this vicious cycle from happening?


I also share the concerns that the changes could make capitals less useful in high-class pve which would also harm pvp corps hunting for cap ganks. However I'm optimistic that this new concept could even improve the situation if done right. Now, usually 2 dreads and 2 carriers are used to escalate, but the one carrier only warps in at range to trigger his wave and immediately leaves again, and the other carrier often does not triage. So in most cases, gankers can catch two dreads and in the best case also the one carrier but rarely all four capitals.

If the new drifter now encourages the use of at least four committed capitals or even more, then it could be an improvement also for the hunters. And if the bearing fleet uses subcapitals instead surely this subcap fleet will have to be quite large and/or shiny, so also a worthwile target for attackers.

So there is good potential here for improvements all around, it will just depend on execution :)

.

FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-04-05 02:13:53 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
@Fozzie: How will you stop this vicious cycle from happening?


Don't suck at Eve?

Also, the ability of a motivated attacker to "toxify" a system for purely PvE oriented entities, to literally leave poop everywhere on their way out if they don't get a fight, is amazing. The converse, that a group which could take down such a toxified system could make untold billions in an hour, is also amazing. Bravo.

Please make this a thing in Null. Make there be consequences for getting safe at the first sign of danger. If all of the Imperium, all of Null, has to burn to make this a thing then I will breathe the smoke and revel in the visions it shows me. Let the hate flow, let the apocalypse come, let the flames consume the weak and unworthy. Make the choice of safety be a trap; glory as all those who cannot fight for what they own flee broken and weeping back to the safety of Empire.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#37 - 2016-04-05 02:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
No, because this is still a MMO and the consequences would be too dire with too little effort by the 'system poopers'.

If one Drifter is a real challenge even to an established high-class corp, as it is intended to be, then this naturally means that two Drifters are a HUGE challenge and three or more are impossible to beat.

And an attacker would only need a few minutes at any time of the day to toxify the system. No corp can or should be expected to guard their whole system 24/7 to stop mass Drifter spawning.

And even without malicious attackers, in a big corp there can always be some newbies or people just make mistakes and in 10 minutes of fail they could unintentionally toxify the whole system for their 70 corp mates who maybe were sleeping that time, that is not balanced.

edit: Maybe an easy solution would be to limit the maximum number of drifters present on any grid to two, so attackers or incompetent residents can create an extra challenge, but one that is still possible to recover from.

.

captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2016-04-05 02:24:44 UTC
If you warp in a huge fleet, the Drifter should make a much better attempt at running away or call in reinforcements that don't drop money.
Loroseco Kross
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#39 - 2016-04-05 02:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Loroseco Kross
Peter Moonlight wrote:


Perfect explanation of what will happen with current changes, too bad most of people don't understand it, and those that pretend they do/argue the most don't even do PVE/PVP/Live in C5/C6.

What we really needed is to make site require more capitals, makes it dangerous to run, be afraid of your ships getting attacked out of nowhere because you are using these extremely expensive capitals where on average each is 4-8bil, and you can make 5-10b a day with 2-5 people easily, and the risk of loosing them is almost non-existent.

Most of people were farming for years and didn't get attacked a single time, and I know for fact that a lot of farming groups were NEVER seen doing sites. NPC kill api was helping you get idea when someone does sites, but RIP that.

So, from someone who's been hunting for years, and who's been doing escalations for years, and hunted down hundreds of site crews, and got dropped on couple of times only over years and mostly because we waited in a site to get a fight otherwise we could always run away.

IT IS TOO DAMN EASY risk/reward, so now, you are making site different (harder, maybe?), making us have to point the sleeper, giving similar isk, but allowing the site to be run down with subcaps and you can still get bunch of isk with it, maybe you can even use capitals at range to spawn escalations and run them down with subcap fleets?

You can basically do sites in very cheap capitals, for escalations now you require 3 capitals, dread, carrier, FAX, and you probably don't need to have them all on grid, and most of people won't even do escalations.

And, that's a PVE/reward part, talking about RISK, there's almost none?
-New sig spawn where you had to click scan probes to see it (couple years ago) - removed, 99% of people can get out of any site with 99% of their PVE crew the same second a new sig pops up in probe scanner, which they do of course

-NPC kill api - want to see when some people run sites, to logoff in their hole, try to hunt them trough their static, rageroll for them? Nope - REMOVED

-Watchlist, wanna leave your client on when you are sleeping so you can see when your targets are mass logging in? Nope, watchlist removed

-Want to see if your targets were doing sites while you were out doing stuff IRL? Warp to a site see if everything is cleared down to trigger? NOPE sites get cleared

I could probably think of more things but this is basically turning wormholes into a safe group pve where you need even less capitals to do sites and with time people making the isk are more and more safer.

I hope I'm wrong but, over years if I learned something about CCP Fozzie and changes to wormhole space, it is that every time it was boosting safety of people running PVE, making it impossible to do evictions (Hello Citadels), or simply trying to discourage people from living in wormholes if they want to do anything other than PVE.




I came here to voice my opinions on the changes, but Peter sums it up.

You were meant to nerf income and increase risk. I think the income nerf is about right, but risk is completely gone now you can just burn the site down to the drifter with subs.

This is what happens when the so-called "WH CSM member" knows nothing about running sites besides warping 10 dreads in to a C6 mag site.

I'm an acquired taste.

Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#40 - 2016-04-05 02:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr0000 Maulerant
Regular drifters? Please don't kill the wh bling Kronos. I've had like five of them nuked by k space drifters and to be frank, I would prefer not to mirror this in J. Ideally higher scan resolution for the drifter DD?

It's fun, difficult, dangerous and profitable gameplay. Save it if you can.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur.