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"Load Station Environment" option removed?

First post
Author
Amarrius Ibn Pontificus
Legion Air
Meracom
#21 - 2016-03-09 18:40:27 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Please understand that we realize the value that a feature like this can have for someone who's running Eve for some reason on a really slow machine that needs it. If you are, it probably seems annoying and arbitrary that we'd take it out.

However, any feature, even something like this which is relatively simple, carries ongoing costs to the development team for the life of the game.

The way this feature works is that it loads the 3D station environment, including your ship, captures an image of your ship in the station hangar, and then disables rendering of the 3D station environment, using that image in its place.

  • First, even when the feature works fine, every release we have to make sure our QA team schedules a task to verify that it still works. We do this for every feature in the settings.

  • Second, certain recent changes (I'm not sure exactly which ones, but I believe they were related to the new, unreleased hangar environments for citadels) broke this feature internally. This particular feature had broken before in the recent past, and each time this happens, we must allocate developer time to investigate and fix the issue.

  • Finally, we have an ongoing problem (and I'm pretty sure you've noticed it too) that our settings menu is overloaded with choices, many of which are hard to describe in a tooltip or a few-word name. It's easy to add settings and harder (particularly when players depend on them) to remove them. So, we're trying to manage our settings more closely and not just leave them there because they've been there for a long time.

  • In this instance, we're very sure (because we repeatedly check) that our normal hangar environment performs acceptably on "low" settings on a machine that meets our minimum specification. We also have data that lets us know how many people enable this particular setting, and it's not many. (Sorry, I don't know the exact percentage.)

    If you're struggling with performance with a single client, I would first try turning the settings all the way down on that machine, if you haven't already, and see how far that gets you. If it's still problematic, turning on Interval 1 and lowering screen resolution may also help.

    If you are finding there's a significant performance drop for your foreground Eve client with entirely minimized clients running in the background, this may be a bug, and I suggest using the in-game bug report tool ("Report Bug" on the F12 menu) to report it.


    I think we can all understand that. Or at least those willing to understand it, they will. But I'd like to throw a different and yet related wrench at that argument.

    Years ago when I started playing EVE, the system reuirements were incredibly low even by the standards of the time and by comparison with other PC games. That was one of the reasons that led me to keep on playing EVE back then, to be honest. I would often log on using an ASUS eee notebook to update my skill queue on the go and take care of a few corp management things. Then the changes on the shader were implemented and it seems to me that was the point when EVE took a slightly different path to flashier and fancier graphics that started demanding higher computer requirements, on par of most other computer games.

    This is not a bad thing by itself, but everytime you implement changes that increase the minimum system requirements, be it shaders, or the upcoming DX change, or this static station environment, you cut off a few percentage points off your player base. And you have even offered actual figures on that a few times, regarding the percentage of players that are using machines that won't meet every new requirements change.

    And over time, with all those incremental changes, I do wonder the real weight that also has on your player base. Sure anough many such people will upgrade their hardware or buy a new computer. But not everyone can. We're still under the effect of a financial crisis and while the original intent behind PLEX was a different one, the data seems to point that not everyone can (or is at least willing) to spend real money to sub their accounts, much less invest on a new or renewed computer.

    So I'd only suggest you consider that side as well and how many people and even new players from less common countries in the EVE universe, may be "locked out" of the game because of the computer they own. It could be that a better ballance between EVE graphic awesomeness and minimum system requirements to run the client could be found.

    Or maybe not. It's just something that's been bothering me for a while so... there.
    CCP Darwin
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #22 - 2016-03-09 19:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
    Thanks for your feedback.

    We do have comprehensive data on the hardware and software configurations that people use to play Eve, and we use that information in deciding how to manage minimum specifications. We also performance test frequently on minimum-spec systems to make sure that the game remains playable.

    Our minimum specification today (which has been in place since 2013, as I write this) corresponds to a typical gaming computer from mid-2007 for Windows or about 2010 for Mac, which is old enough that continued operating system support will soon start to be an issue for owners of those systems, and that can be an issue for us too, because our development tools must support operating systems that work on those computers as well.

    We do not actively prevent Eve from running on computers that do not meet our minimum specification, so if your gameplay is of a style that's tolerant of performance that's below our standards, you may find that such a system continues to work for you after it's no longer supported. (Note, however, that occasionally we may make changes, such as our current plan to retire the old launcher June 30th, that affect Eve's software support for older operating systems. This is unavoidable.)

    So take comfort that we don't make these decisions lightly, and if your favorite computer for playing Eve is adversely impacted by this change, I'm sorry, but I hope you can find an alternative that allows you to stick with us.

    CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

    Obil Que
    Star Explorers
    Solis Tenebris
    #23 - 2016-03-09 19:43:03 UTC
    Thanks for keeping up with the thread.

    I will second the bobbing issue but for a different reason. I often will connect to my PC via TeamViewer to update things in EVE remotely or to keep up on chat, etc. as CEO. The bobbing of the ship in station is a very unnecessary change in the UI that slows down the remote interface significantly which is why I disabled it. It would be very nice if the camera bob feature was tied to the ship bobbing in the station. I can work around by having a 100% non-transparent window like the market covering the ship but it seems an odd work around.
    Daemun Khanid
    Corbeau de sang
    #24 - 2016-03-09 22:41:26 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    Thanks for keeping up with the thread.

    I will second the bobbing issue but for a different reason. I often will connect to my PC via TeamViewer to update things in EVE remotely or to keep up on chat, etc. as CEO. The bobbing of the ship in station is a very unnecessary change in the UI that slows down the remote interface significantly which is why I disabled it. It would be very nice if the camera bob feature was tied to the ship bobbing in the station. I can work around by having a 100% non-transparent window like the market covering the ship but it seems an odd work around.


    Currently I have my inventory window enlarged to cover the entire hanger but good news is that they've acknowledged it as a bug that is being fixed. According to CCP Turtlepower it's supposed to stop completely when the "camera bobbing" option is turned off.

    Daemun of Khanid

    Dersen Lowery
    The Scope
    #25 - 2016-03-10 01:51:40 UTC
    CCP Darwin wrote:
    Quote:
    (ps: this is with the Mac client, which has simultaneously become much better and much worse.)

    Are you referring to the new WINE option? If it's much worse in a way you can describe, please file bug reports about any issues you encounter!


    So I went and selected the WINE option. There's a crashing issue, which I'm trying to get reproducible data about, but mostly: wow.

    Objection withdrawn.

    Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

    I voted in CSM X!

    Idame Isqua
    Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
    Templis CALSF
    #26 - 2016-03-12 08:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
    Here's an idea

    How about having an option for nothing background related in station

    I do not care that citadels broke it

    All I want is a static station background I don't care what it looks like

    I don't where you hide the option either it could be in Timbuktu or El Darado

    Eve players are used to chasing mythical basic client settings and functions.

    I don't think any of your reasons are acceptable.

    If the static background is broken by Citadels
    Remove the static background

    Following your own line of reasoning its not a key feature of the game used by everyone

    But it is preferred by many

    I think you will find most people who enabled this option couldn't care less if it didn't work in Citadels

    But I for one would rather have a dead black station environment

    than station spinning ad nauseous

    Maybe even replace it with backgrounds from the eve client or something?

    I find it strange you spend a lot of time on those but didn't think that would be a good idea?


    God damit I want functionality! It is the Caldari way and you must accept it.

    TL:DR
    If the static background was weird a created by nutters fix it by making it a truly static background or at minimum black
    Heck the bottom of the forums background is black, so why cant we have more back, maybe a shade of grey that would be really nice, mmmmmmmmmmmk
    pugal
    The Executives
    Executive Outcomes
    #27 - 2016-03-16 03:43:46 UTC
    I hope this doesn't mean we can't bypass CQ which is this games worst feature.
    Idame Isqua
    Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
    Templis CALSF
    #28 - 2016-03-16 11:15:01 UTC
    pugal wrote:
    I hope this doesn't mean we can't bypass CQ which is this games worst feature.



    No it doesn't do that well not for me anyway thank bob
    Jeb Ashimura
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #29 - 2016-03-24 00:34:31 UTC
    Performance of the dynamic station interior is abysmal. The GPUs on my desktop PC and notebook are working overtime for no discernible benefit. Please bring back the static hangar view or a suitable replacement ASAP.
    Ziggy Starbust
    Aestivalis Research
    #30 - 2016-04-02 13:31:45 UTC
    Idame Isqua wrote:
    Here's an idea

    How about having an option for nothing background related in station
    ...
    But I for one would rather have a dead black station environment


    +1. An option to have a black, featureless, frugal background would work wonders. Maybe pass it on to the devs, so it could at least be considered?

    Just disable all rendering and display nothing when docked... hopefully that won't break as often.
    CCP Darwin
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #31 - 2016-04-02 20:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
    Just a follow-up on this.

    The graphics software team discussed revisiting this feature in light of the feedback we've received from players who preferred using it, and have concluded that we do not plan to do so.

    Here are the settings I'd recommend trying if you wish to reduce the GPU and battery impact on your client:


    Display and Graphics

    Adapter Resolution: As low as you're comfortable going depending on your current monitor resolution.
    UI scaling: 100%
    Interval: If you're comfortable with a low frame rate, Interval Four. Otherwise, Interval One.

    Uncheck all boxes in the center column, labeled Effects.

    Resource Cache Enabled: On
    HDR Enabled: Off

    Anti-Aliasing: Disabled
    Post-Processing: None
    Shader Quality: Low
    Texture Quality: Low
    LOD Quality: Low
    Shadow Quality: Disabled
    Interior Effects: Low
    Interior Shader Quality: Low

    General Settings

    In the far right column, move the Transparency dial to 0 (far left) and uncheck Enable Window Blur.

    CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #32 - 2016-04-03 03:14:43 UTC
    CCP Darwin wrote:
    Just a follow-up on this.

    The graphics software team discussed revisiting this feature in light of the feedback we've received from players who preferred using it, and have concluded that we do not plan to do so.

    Here are the settings I'd recommend trying if you wish to reduce the GPU and battery impact on your client:

    (settings table)


    CCP Darwin, this is fine, until I undock. Switching all the settings back and forth every time I dock or undock is just not practical.
    As an example: I run three pilots in a mining op. Once they all dock, Ore is traded to one pilot for refining and manufacturing. And its PAINFUL. All the docked clients kill the fps and client responsiveness, making it hard to do anything.
    In space the fps suffers a little, but it is acceptable.

    So If I could have one set of setting for docked, and another for in-space, your settings advice would be golden. But I cannot do that. What is needed is some way to make the resource draw of a docked pilot be no more than an in-space pilot.

    Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

    Frozen fanfiction

    Maja Chou
    #33 - 2016-04-03 13:50:45 UTC
    funny in window mode i have no interval other as immediate and one^^
    (heared about other levels today for first time)

    and i also got signifikant higher grafikload as bevore with the old 2d hangarview and its anoying
    i dont need shipspinning i dont need little ships flying arround in station, i even DONT need the ship wobbling arround and flashing my eyes during night with some position lights!
    (oh the undock warning lihgts i love)

    i need low grafikworkload while in station to do all the thinks i do with these lot of ingame windows while docket
    i understand the point to remove 2d function but now guys you have to pay the bill and do something to make the hangarview realy low in power need

    right now its better to not dock the chars or only use one charwindow opened while in station

    why is there not a way to lower all this grafikload in station and if i hear from sisi about a big screen in hangar with vids on it like in the capt, quartier i guess it will be even more worst in the future

    also on this future feature we need mute and pause or a option to show all ingame news only once and stop after this
    i dont need this on all my chars one on the main its enough^^

    or will CCP buy me a new GPU and pay the power bill? or a new fan for my grafikcard because it sounds docked like an airplaneengine?

    Da die auf Schildwall vorhandenen Informationen nur einen minimalen Einfluss auf das Endergebnis der Neuspielererfahrung von EVE als ganzes gehabt hätten,habe ich beschlossen, die Informationen so zu belassen, wie CCP sie zu liefern in der Lage ist.

    Primary This Rifter
    Mutual Fund of the Something
    #34 - 2016-04-03 23:06:44 UTC
    You have to have EVE running full screen for interval options above one.
    Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
    CK-0FF
    #35 - 2016-04-03 23:46:16 UTC
    Primary This Rifter wrote:
    You have to have EVE running full screen for interval options above one.

    In which case it's a pain to use any other programs on other monitors because Eve disappears as soon as it loses focus.
    Jeb Ashimura
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #36 - 2016-04-04 00:23:01 UTC
    CCP Darwin wrote:
    The graphics software team discussed revisiting this feature in light of the feedback we've received from players who preferred using it, and have concluded that we do not plan to do so.

    What to you mean by "revisiting this feature"? a) Bringing back the static hangar, b) increasing performance of the dynamic hangar? You should consider a) and you must address b) if you don't bring back the static hangar. The dynamic hangar is, in its current state, an unacceptable waste of resources, which needs to be significantly improved or kicked out (together with the captain's quarters, which at least can be avoided).

    CCP Darwin wrote:
    Here are the settings I'd recommend trying if you wish to reduce the GPU and battery impact on your client:

    You cannot seriously expect players to fiddle with the graphics settings whenever we dock or undock. This is beyond impractical, and just not good enough.
    CCP Darwin
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #37 - 2016-04-04 02:03:28 UTC
    Jeb Ashimura wrote:
    What to you mean by "revisiting this feature"? a) Bringing back the static hangar

    Yes, I mean the team has decided not to pursue some other implementation of the "Load Station Environment" checkbox at this time.

    If you like having higher than minimum performance settings while undocked, but you'd still like to reduce GPU load while docked, I'd recommend starting with turning window transparency to zero and disabling the window blur effect, both under General Settings.

    CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #38 - 2016-04-04 13:32:22 UTC
    CCP Darwin wrote:
    Jeb Ashimura wrote:
    What to you mean by "revisiting this feature"? a) Bringing back the static hangar

    Yes, I mean the team has decided not to pursue some other implementation of the "Load Station Environment" checkbox at this time.

    If you like having higher than minimum performance settings while undocked, but you'd still like to reduce GPU load while docked, I'd recommend starting with turning window transparency to zero and disabling the window blur effect, both under General Settings.

    The issue with zero window transparency is it reduces situational awareness in space. You can see the tags behind the windows, unless you turn off transparency. So, what you are saying is I have to ruin my in-space game to get reasonable fps when docked. That's bad design. I should not have to make that decision.

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    CCP Darwin
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #39 - 2016-04-04 17:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
    Vincent Athena wrote:
    So, what you are saying is I have to ruin my in-space game to get reasonable fps when docked. That's bad design. I should not have to make that decision.

    I'm really curious about the specifics of what's going on for you. The hangar scene is a lot less heavy than anything you will see while undocked.

    Do me a favor: Using your preferred graphics settings, open up the FPS meter (ctrl-f), and submit a bug report from in-game (F12 menu) with screenshots of the FPS meter while in station, immediately after undocking with the camera pointed at the station, and while engaging in normal gameplay away from the station. Then mail me the bug report number in-game.

    My suspicion is that you may have all of your graphic quality settings turned up enough that you're not getting what we consider baseline acceptable performance in any of these situations. However, if there's something specifically bad about the hangar scene, we'd be happy to take a look.

    Edit: I know you probably already have this covered, but please make sure that you're looking at the hangar scene and not the captain's quarters while docked.

    CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #40 - 2016-04-05 02:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
    EBR-75531 sent.
    You are sort of right that I am doing something that lowers the FPS to a level you may consider unacceptable: I am running three clients on a six year old laptop. But although 10 FPS is sort of low, it is acceptable for mining. Its also what this thread is all about: multiple clients, with some or all docked, causes very low FPS, when those same clients all in space is acceptable.

    Result:
    Hangar view: 6
    Undocked: 8
    At an anomaly: 10

    Single client results (not included in the bug report):
    Hangar view: 20
    Undocked: 30
    At an anomaly: 30

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